Trilam Warbow Hickory/Greenheart/Hickory 125-130lbs@32"

[orangputihkgu]

Hello warbow community!

Looking for a Warbow I came across the Trilam Warbow Hickory/Greenheart/Hickory 125-130lbs@32" from the bowyer Fairbow in NL.

Having found until then lams in general with a tropical hardwood as bellywood I am curious to know how Hickory stands up to the belly job, especially at a high draw weight (125-130lbs)?

And maybe some one could explain the effect of the Greenheart wood in the core on the performance of the bow? Is the core in this bow for speed or to support the belly?

Thanks and Cheers.......CHRIS

[toomanyknots]

Well in my recent experiences, it seems to do great really, and take very little set, almost none. And that is without heat treating it.

[DarkSoul]

I'm not really fond of Fairbow. I'm from the Netherlands and I've seen their bows numerous times. The company does make some awesome bows (for some less than awesome prices in this higher quality), but to me it's clear they are clearly commercialized. That is not wrong in itself, but it shows off in most of their bows. As a craftsman myself, I can easily see where they save time and money in their productions process; where they take shortcuts. I don't want to bring the company down, since they're some good folks making very decent bows, but I do have some points of critique on their hickory backed hickory warbows.
- The glue lines in the laminated bows are less than perfect. Sometimes even terrible, but apparently these bows hold up just fine! (Or they get replaced as warranty.) The epoxy must be a good one, but they're very secretive about the type or brand of glue they use. I do know they use a toothing plane for prepping most glue surfaces, which causes large gaps between the laminations. Ugly in my opinion, but it appears to do no harm to the bows functionality.
- I don't like the horn tips they make. It sure is a matter of taste, but it really looks like "a pile of scat was deposited on top of the bow" (I quote a master bowyer here). Functional, sure, but those horn nocks are far from graceful.
- The company uses a lot of hickory for their bows. That's because this wood can withstand grain violations and faulty tiller like no other wood can. They use it for so many types of bows, that I'm sometimes bewildered by the design they force this hickory in. Hickory is knows to fare best in a dry climate so they woods EMC does not get too high. Our country if famous for its water - equals high humidity.   Hickory is also famous for its high tensile strength, but relatively low compression strength. This means a trapped back is often smart in hickory. Yet this company forces the hickory into a flat back and deeeeeeply crowned belly! As a result, virtually all their hickory bellied bows have at LEAST 2 (more often 3) inches of set! That is when they're new. Imagine what happens often the bows have been used for some time. It can only get worse. This deeply crowned belly just isn't suited for hickory, but I could not tell that to them. They simply waved my ignorance away.

This warbow is not a bad bow at all. If you like the appearance of the glue lines, tip overlays and leather handle, you'll certainly not be disappointed. However, my point of critique is the choice of hickory for a deeply crowned belly. You have to know that this bow will take 2½ or 3" of set over times, which robs cast enormously. The bow may draw the listed 125# in the end, but it performs not as good as a 125# bow could do. It's a reliable bow that will not break, and it can handle some abuse. But it's not the best shooter. To that end, they sell their grossly overbuild $1,000 Italian yew warbows...

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As a side not, this message board is meant for bowyers - not buyers. We would like to help you in making a bow, rather than buying a bow. So our communal answer will and should be: save your money on that bow and go make you own! Your first bow won't be such a heavy warbow, but your third or fourth bow could seriously be over 100#. There's nothing more rewarding than shooting a bow you've made yourself!

[toomanyknots]

I think a bow can have 2 1/2" string follow and still shoot great. 3" can be a bit much of course, but on a higher weight longer bow, it seems not to matter as much as long as string tension is good at brace. It seems that way to me sometimes anyway. Sometimes I will favor a bow with almost 3" string follow over a bow with reflex, depending on how it shoots and performs, how it draws, handshock, etc. I have also heard about hickorys compression weakness. But this fact just doesn't seem to wanna present itself to me? I just made a nice and deep hickory bow 74 3/4" ntn and maybe 110 or 120 at 32", and yet it has failed to take more than 1/4" set I think? And that is after letting it sit on a static tiller tree to view the tiller and take pictures, etc. Which usually kills bows when I do it.  ANd no heat treating at all. I have also heard of silver maples compression weakness. One thing I have also done is make heavier weight silver maple longbows, without compression problems or excessive set. Quite the contrary, in fact they have been some nice shooting bows. Where I have heard (or read, I guess) other people talking about how they have tried to make silver maple flatbows many times and just ended up with chrysals and belly failure. What this is making me think is that the extra length of a longbow, 74" to 78", when compared to the typical length people will usually make a flat bow, 60" - 68", might make a bigger difference than you think with lessening the stress on the belly and the bow, despite the deep cross section. The silver maple longbows I have made have been around 70" to 78" ntn.

[mikekeswick]

Hickory, greenheart , hickory is a terrible combination in my opion.
Just to qualify - i've made a few 100 elb's out of many different combinations of wood.
Greenheart is a much under used bellywood. Last year I found a supplier of large sections of greenheart and after plenty of experimenting I will say it's as good as ipe in compression. It will make any draw weight bow you want, take little set even when narrower and sands up a dream.
Hickory here in humid,damp England is pretty lame in compression.
I haven't seen any of these bows/staves from this company but I wiull say that Darksoul knows what he is talking about and is trying to save you from wasting your money on an inferior product.

[mikekeswick]

Toomanyknots - a bow with 21/2 - 3 inches of set has been over-strained...simple! It may be pleasant to shoot but it sure won't be great (compared to what it could have been!).

[toomanyknots]

Toomanyknots - a bow with 21/2 - 3 inches of set has been over-strained...simple! It may be pleasant to shoot but it sure won't be great (compared to what it could have been!).

Mike, 3" yes, but just because a bow has 2" of set doesn't mean it has been over strained. Anything under 2" is fine. With better woods it may of course, but with woods like red oak, you can easily get 2" set on a new bow with a typical flatbow design. I have had alot of great shooters with 2" set, out shoot reflexed osage bows of the same specs. I think people are becoming "set snobs" anymore,  . Not that thats such a horrible thing in itself, just sharing some thoughts.

[mikekeswick]

Sorry but i'll have to disagree 2 inch of set does mean i'st been overstrained and you started off by saying 2 1/2...thats a 25% discrepancy. Red oak just like ash etc can be made into a low set bow. Look at the properties of the wood and design the bow accordingly....my hint is compression strength verus tension strength......

[fishfinder401]

ahh, just say you intentionally gave it "deflex" they wont know the difference

[toomanyknots]

Sorry but i'll have to disagree 2 inch of set does mean i'st been overstrained and you started off by saying 2 1/2...thats a 25% discrepancy.

What I said, to quote myself, was that a bow can have 2 1/2" string follow and still shoot great which is obviously true and does not need to, nor can it be argued with to any degree.  Especially if said bow was made with a deflexed stave to begin with. Mike, I admire your work like a little girl admires justin bieber,  , but you are wrong here, and I think you are being a bit of a snob. Anything under 2" is just fine. Saying a bow with 2" string follow is always over strained reminds me of one of those people that think a guitar is ruined because it has a couple marks below the sound hole from playing... Thats what happens to a guitar when you play it!, you don't buy a 1000 dollar guitar to look at it! Set is what happens to bows that get used, you don't build a bow to look at the pretty unbraced profile, do you? 

[Ian.]

Toomanyknots - I am totally with Mike on this one, too many bowyers like to disguise bad bow making as normal; 3" of set is really beyond normal, you should be aiming for 1" maybe 1.5". When you speak of deflexed staves we don't consider that set, only the amount of follow the bow has taken after being tillered is counted, that isn't to say a low set, deflexed bow will shoot well though.

[Yeomanbowman]

I feel it is worth pointing out, as I understand, that under Dutch law a commercial bow must be tillered to 2" over the stated draw length, therefor the bow in question has been drawn to 34" which is a looong way back.  This would make for more set but ensure a very safe bow.
I'm I right DarkSoul?

[toomanyknots]

Toomanyknots - I am totally with Mike on this one, too many bowyers like to disguise bad bow making as normal; 3" of set is really beyond normal, you should be aiming for 1" maybe 1.5". When you speak of deflexed staves we don't consider that set, only the amount of follow the bow has taken after being tillered is counted, that isn't to say a low set, deflexed bow will shoot well though.

I am not in anyway referring to poor craftsmanship as normal or acceptable. I did not hear anyone mention the difference between string follow and set in this thread, I said string follow which I took to be understood as string follow. Mike said set which I take to be understood as set.

EDIT: And I don't have any problem calling a bow, especially hickory which in my opinion doesn't seem to be too hard to get a bow with zero follow out of in high weights even, (although I am aware of hickorys legendary compression weakness... although I am sure everyone would rather take a piece of hickory over red oak anyday,  ),... I don't have any problems calling a such a bow over strained. Yes 3" is alot of string follow. I was just trying to put things in perspective, and share some related thoughts I have on the subject, I don't give a hoot about fairbow either way, nor do I have any personal knowledge if they're bows are quality or not. ...But basically in regards to wooden bows, set happens. String follow happens. New bows have less of it. Old bows have more of it. Anything under 2" is fine.

[DarkSoul]

I feel it is worth pointing out, as I understand, that under Dutch law a commercial bow must be tillered to 2" over the stated draw length, therefor the bow in question has been drawn to 34" which is a looong way back.  This would make for more set but ensure a very safe bow.
I'm I right DarkSoul?

Hm, I'm not aware of any actual laws regarding hand bows. There is some jurisdiction on crossbows, but I THINK there is nothing in Dutch law about hand bows. I could be mistaken here, but I've never heard of that 2" over tillered before. I do know that Fairbow tillers her bows to a bit more than the listed drawlength, which I can relate to in order to ensure a durable bow. Most of their bows are listed as for instance 60#@28", max draw 70#@30". They won't prefer to sell such a bow to someone with a true 30" drawlength, but it is a guarantee that the bow was tillered and pulled all the way to 30" with success.
I'm still not sure whether this is an actual law, or just a choice made by the company.

[Del the cat]

I can't imagine any country bothering to legislate about the tillering of bows.
Of course all my bows are CE marked and meet all EU requirements for electromagnetic interference and susceptibility 
Del