Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: cuthalion on May 19, 2011, 01:05:57 am
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Hey Everyone,
While watching all 8 parts of the uncut video of the interview with Ed Scott, I came across an interesting tidbit where he mentions that he does not use hide glue to sinew back his bows but instead uses wood glue. From doing a sinew project myself and reading up on different methods of sinew backing, it was obvious that powdered hide glue or "make it yourself hide glue" were the most effective ways of ensuring the sinew would not come off the bow.
I was wondering if anyone has any insight on using wood glue for sinew backing and their thoughts on this method.
<a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyZcjRFjL94&feature=relmfu a>
heres the link for the video and jump to about 2 minutes.
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My perspective.
Ed doesn't use hide glue. But he reflexes his bows before applying sinew. Most sinew backed wood bows I see are sinewed then pulled into reflex as it dries.
I'm sure the neutral plane is still shifted with the wood glue and sinew. Seems like the sinew is still being stretched a good amount. I've been thinking about using titebond with some sinew.
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I use TB and it works great. No failures yet............knock on wood! Its very waterproof as well. TB is the king glue in my shop. I have 10 bottles of various glue around but my TB is always empty it seems?
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PD, do you use TBII or TBIII?
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III on everything I do Lee. Sinew, backings, grips, wraps, skins and tips. Love the stuff.
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Cool, it's what I've used on all my lams and backings, rawhide, etc but not too many of my projects have made it to arrow flinging status so it's good to hear the endorsement. You can't do and heat or steam corrections after it's been used though, correct?
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I have nevere heated a bow with glue on it Lee, no idea what works there? My guess is heat aand TB dont like each other.
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I was sittin with Ed and Justin and Carolyn,at their booth,Years ago,when a guy came up to the booth and proceeded to shoot severall of Eds bows.He came back and told Ed,how they shot Great and he shure wanted to buy one of em.In the conversation,he proceeded to tell Ed how he was horrified,at some of these Yahoos who used TB glues to apply Sinew and how it couldnt possibly work well like hide glue.He said he allways used HG and his bows shot like Eds.After Ed told him that the bows he just shot were made with TB glues,he just walked away and i never saw him at the Expo again.I know of at least 2 well known bowyers,that were sceptics,before talking with Ed and now,they use TB glues as well.
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I can still feel the burning coals from the old PA board Traxx. How times has changed! Glad to see ol' Ed put folks on the straight and narrow...........Art
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Tite bond releases at around 120 degrees I believe but not 100% sure.
Stiks
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The hide glue would be heavier than the wood glue. Given the same unbraced profile the TB bows shouldn't be slower, and might be faster. However, from everything I've read the hide glue helps stretch the sinew, which gives it that spring. Using TB the sinew would react more like rawhide. However, being such a durable backing, it should still enable the bow to be built with a lot of relfex and hold together. Of course, all of these backings have proven themsevles regardless of the glues used by many bowyers. So what would the harm be in experimenting?
I'm just musing to myself. I don't really know ???
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Several years ago, not long after I started using TB3, I became curious on its possible usefulness in horn bows. I decided to try gluing the horn strips on a horn bow I was working on with the glue. The fit of horn to core was perfect, I used moderate pressure to clamp the horn and waited a suitable amount of time before tillering. I had not reached brace height and the horn exploded from the limbs. You could see from the remains where the glue had literally sheared. TB3 definitely has it's limitations and they are not that high
I'm not saying that TB3 will not work with sinew but to say that it will work as well is a bit of a stretch. Just because one man said that bows sinewed with TB3 shot as well as his hide glue bows is not saying much. Maybe this guys bows were dogs, I don't know. A true test would be with a chrono. I know that I have chronoed some of my sinew backed bows to at least 185 FPS and more with 10 GPP arrows at a 28" draw. If anyone would care to supply chrono speeds using bows sinewed with TB3 I would be more inclined to concede the point. So far I have not seen anyone willing to provide any documentation on this and this debate has come up many times over the years. Obviously the performance tests would have to be done with a 10 GPP arrow at a 28" draw.
Kegan. You are assuming that wood glue is less dense than hide glue but I don't think it is. A lump of TB3 is quite heavy and will sink in water and that makes it more than 1.0 SG. Hide glue has a SG of 1.2
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I've seen the videos and noticed that the glue he used was an off-white color. Very likely to be TB2 or 3. That would contribute to the water resistent nature of his bows. As far as performance goes, I have shot THOUSANDS of arrows over three plus years out of my Owl bow, and have not taken any particular measures to ensure its wellfare. I haven't abused it, but I haven't babied it either. There was a three week period last summer in Southwest Oklahoma when it had to sit in my truck because I didn't have a good place to keep it indoors. (Itenerant army housing.) It has had no trouble, still shots as well as ever. I certainly have no complaints about it. If Mr. Scott says it works, it probably works. Whatever the material/method is, he's got it figured out.
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Marc,
Why dont you make one,with TB glue n tell us whats up,instead of waitin on someone else to do it,if its that important to you?
As for the 1 guy sayin the TB glued bows,shot as well as his hideglue bows,not haveing any merit,ill say this.His bows are not Dogs by any means.He makes a pretty darn nice bow.In fact,ive seen him on this site,now n then.You may even know him.I used the story to detract from the whole stupid debate from even getting started,as like you say,its been beat to death allready.I refrained from mentioning the "Guys" name,as i dont see any point in causeing further embarrasement.I will add,as well,that ive never read a post by this Guy on any of these threads concerning TB glues and Sinew after that day.Nobody is sayin,that you cant use Hideglue anymore,or that it doesnt work well.What i am saying is,that TB glues work well too if a person wants to use it.Its been done and proven to work well.The End.
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I've used both and the only difference I've seen in performance is,, none. On humid days I'll take a sinew backed bow glued with TB3 over a hide glued one. Over the years you don't have to keep adjusting the tiller because of sinew shrinkage. I've used hide glue when sinew backing a bow, then after it is FULLEY cured, put a film of TB3 over it to help seal it.
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I wouldn't be the best person to make such a bow Todd as I may be a bit prejudiced in the other direction. This could affect the outcome and/or people wouldn't believe me if by chance my findings were such that it discredited the use of TB3. Someone that has an interest in a positive outcome would be the best person to make such a bow. Anyway, it sounds to me like it's as important to you as it is to me ;) perhaps more so.
Another thing, if you can't tell the difference between a bow that has been sinew backed with hide glue and one sinew backed with TB3 then you must not be that familiar with the process and looks of the finished product. I've never used TB with sinew but I have used it with linen string backing, I've also used hide glue, and there is a noticeable difference in the look of the finished product
I'm sure TB can be used and said so in my other post. I'm just debating the claim that it works as well, something that to me needs to be proven.
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I'll rephrase what I said, I haven't been able to tell the difference in performance between the two, unless the humidity is high. Then I'll leave the hide glued bow at home. And I haven't seen a 100% water proof seal yet. As far as looks, I'll cover most of my sinew backed bows with skins or bark.
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Yeah Mullet,
Ed covers his sinew jobs with a thin rawhide.Its for protection as well as a smooth surface for decoration.
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i could imagine you could make a chinese styel bow, with siyahs with tb3. straight limbed, sinew backed.. as a matter of fact, ive been kicking around different ideas about how to make my next bow, i might just put it all together with tb3.
but, my question is, doesnt tb3 usually need a decent compression for a good bond? if so, how would you do that with the sinew?
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In another thread on another forum Justin Scott chimed in with his take on using TB3 with sinew. Ill post his response word for word here. Which is pretty much coming from the horses mouth.
I quote.
"TitebondII and III increase drying time rather than decreasing it. Yes the sinew and glue will be "hard dry" in a month and you can shoot the bow but it will take 5-8 months to fully dry. The water resistant glues slow the rate of moisture loss from the sinew. It will get dry enough fairly quickly to eliminate decomposition concerns but significant moisture loss remains to slowly dissipate through the wood and the "skin" of the titebond. ..................Ed Scott has been using TB3 exclusively for some years but he did use TB2 previously.
"Many sinew users are doing more of a sinew lining than a sinew backing. This isn't bad or wrong-a thin course will protect the back and add draw weight and cast. A true sinew back has sinew doing almost all of the tension work....which means a lot of sinew..after drying a third or more of the limbs thickness is sinew/glue matrix. ........." End quote.
So it sounds like Ed floor tillers a bow either before or after using a caul to shape it then backs it with a lot of sinew(almost a third of the limbs thickness),then let's them cure for almost 8 months before he tillers?
I have sinewed once and I used TB3. I have two bow staves that are gonna be sinewed at the same time with hide glue just to see what/if any differences there is between the two.
So far its hard to really say any real conclusion can be made on this debate without hard data collected. Even a chrono might not tell all the truth. Because you can heat treat a stave into reflex and sinew with TB3 and come up with the same profile as a straight bow pulled into reflex by hide glue/sinew.
I think its too little of a difference between the two to make a difference. And it all depends on personal preference on what you want the sinew to do on the back of your bow.
This debate will continue on for who knows how long or till some other glue is invented and used too.
Just my long winded two cents
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I'll rephrase what I said, I haven't been able to tell the difference in performance between the two, unless the humidity is high. Then I'll leave the hide glued bow at home. And I haven't seen a 100% water proof seal yet. As far as looks, I'll cover most of my sinew backed bows with skins or bark.
Looks to me like you are the perfect candidate for testing Eddie
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Speed kills fella's, thats why we shoot wooden bows!
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I'm no expert at all, but it seems like hide glue shrinks as it dries and creates reflex in the bow. TB doesn't shrink, so you have to create the reflex in the bow before sinew backing it. That is how I have always looked at the difference between the two.
A little off topic, but Mr. Scott uses watered down TB as a finish over his snake skins. It is a flat finish, but it sure looks sharp. It's smooth too, you can't even feel the scales.
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Not to interject another item into the fray but what about TB's Hide Glue...anyone use that or have any opinions on that as an option?
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i have used tite bond 111 on all my sinewed bows recurves and flatbows and they all shoot great.and not a one has failed. im not going to get into a whos makin the fastest bow debate but mine shoot above normal and stay consistent .i would recomend tite bond for sinew to anyone.
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I just like to say one thing. Glues like hide , sinew or fish bladder glue are the best natural collagen glues. This is the perfect material for glue a collagen like sinew. They are both collagenes and working together perfectly. This is a very old fact!
TB glues schould be very good but they are PVA glues and not a natural collagen. I ve made some tests vith PVA glues I could by here and all of tham was strechy more or less. They have other molecule structure than collagens.
May natural glues are not water resistant but have been working fine for thousand years, so I dont think it have to change for a new modern material.
But, we have new coatings, varnishes for protect surfaces from water so I would change that.
On the other forum, we hade the same discussion. There a guy (2Traxx) sad who knows Edd, he use hide glue too. Just use this TB glues for that bows which owner lives at a humid area. He like to give a 100%garantie for his bows. So he use both glues as I know.
My opinion, if a sinew backing (with natural glue) is protected with any raw hide and a good top coat than it could use at any climate. (not include rain forest ;D )
Zoltan
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My $ 0.02, which is coming from someone who will not hunt with a bow backed with anything but coming from someone who made a living teaching the scientific method, is one would have to prove that Mr Scott's bows shoot better with hide glue vs wood glue. To do this Mr Scott would have to make a sinew backed bow(hide glue) and a sinew backed bow using wood glue. These bows would have to be identical (difficult to do, I know) in every way. The chrono would have to be used to test both with the same arrow. Just saying. Scientifically speaking...:) Jawge
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That is sort of my way of thinking as well George. If one is going to make a claim then one should back it up with hard facts
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Who made the speed claim to start with? Am I missing something from the original question that was posted? I thought he wanted to know if it TBIII would hold the sinew down.
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Hmmmm...sounds like an interesting test. :)
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Marc- My mistake. Thanks for clearing that up :)
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One wood have to use exact same density wood from the same tree. I think you wood want to check the SG of each stave and try to make them to exact dimensions and weight. And one wood have to measure and weigh the sinew to make sure both bows get the exact same amount. Tough to do and I think you wood have to make more than just two to come to any conclusions. Maybe two from 3 or more species of wood that matches sinew well..I.e.Osage,yew,juniper. But that will be tough to find exact copies of staves in those woods. And there's prob more measures to take....can anyone think of anymore?
Obviously TB3 works but what glue has the better performance? And what about inducing reflex in a stave with heat prior to sinewing? Because you can make a sinewed bow with TB3 the same profile as one induced by the use of hide glue.
Too many questions to answer and this is making my brain hurt over thinking this.
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I go along with Justin Scott on this one. The only difference I have seen is drying time. Tb4 greatly increases the drying time of the sinew. If I were going to use tightbond I would use tb2 as it is not water proof. That being said I have used both tb4, tb3 and hide glue. I can't tell the difference except in curring time. TB4 will take forever to cure down deep once the outside layer has hardened. If I use tb 2 now I put on very thin layers and allow several days between layers. I recently sinewed a plum bow about 6 months ago with tb4 seems like it is still gaining reflex.
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I personally like TB2 because of the drying time. Then I'll smear a layer of TB3 over it once it dries. Steve, I've never seen TB4, where do you get it?
If you use TB for sinew, you have to induce any reflex you want before hand. Because of the glue, it will not shrink and contract. The TB glues encapsulate the sinew, thus sealing it, from the environment and not allowing shrinkage.
For simplicity when sinewing, I'll take the TB glues. This argument is kinda like the old ones like you couldn't make a bow from Kiln dried lumber, carving on the back of a bow and,,, whatever new thing someone has the cajones to try.
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If you really wanted to get accurate test results, you could make a bow and sinew back it with hide glue. Test it, then soak the sinew off and dry it. Then re-apply the same sinew with TB and test it again. That seems like a lot of work, but it would be about the most accurate way as far as I can see.
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Todd was adamant that not scoring the back of a bow was tempting fate because it violated thousands of years of tradition and yet we can freely encapsulate animal material in PVA without thinking teice about it. To heck with the elders when it comes to that.
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Pat,
Go back n read that Debate again.I didnt defend the practice because it was an old tradition,but that it became a tradition for a reason.If the ancestors woulda Had TB glues,I betcha they woulda used it and it may have become a tradition as well.
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Fusizoli,
Traxx and 2traxx,are the same guy ;D
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sooo.. people that have used tb for sinew backing, do you water it down? whats your process? just lay it on wet and let dry over night?
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Fusizoli,
Traxx and 2traxx,are the same guy ;D
::) ;D ok! Hope I had quote U right !
The sinew glued with hide glue needs the same or more time. The turkish flight bows had 2 years or more drying time! One year is averidge on other hornbows, but who wait that time nowdays. Just a few bowyer ::)
As I know TB II is in D3 category so it is near water resistant, D4 like TB III is 100% so TB II with a surface protection scould be water resistant.
I like new things if it better than old. For me in this case the natural glue wins.
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Eddie, the tb4 will eventually dry out the sinew but it takes forever. I mentioned in th epost I built the plum bow 6 months ago. After checking it was closer to two years ago. It looks like it finally may have dried out sinew. Bow gained a lot of weight in the two years. Looking at the color of the sinew I may have used tb3 instead of 4 because it it more yellow than I remembered. The three will eventually dry out.
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sooo.. people that have used tb for sinew backing, do you water it down? whats your process? just lay it on wet and let dry over night?
I'm interested in this too. I have two sister staves of the same design. It wouldn't be scientific but I'd like to give a side by side comarison a try. Already have the first stave sinew backed with Knox curing.
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I don't wan a be the guy who allways say the right thing, but I wouldn't use gelatine for any glue up on a bow. The best is fish bladder glue and the second strongest is the hide glue.
It is too fine for this, here nobody use that on horn bows. I ve heard just failures about gelatine.
Don't take this as a citicism please :)
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I don't wan a be the guy who allways say the right thing, but I wouldn't use gelatine for any glue up on a bow. The best is fish bladder glue and the second strongest is the hide glue.
It is too fine for this, here nobody use that on horn bows. I ve heard just failures about gelatine.
Don't take this as a citicism please :)
Never made a horn bow, but Knox seems to work great for sinew backed wooden bows. I've yet to have a failure (even with relaly heavy bows, 85#+), and it seems there are plenty of other folks using it too ;)
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Knox is a gelatine for foods isn't it? Hope I know well.
Gelatine is hide glue just made for food on a longer finer process. I ve used gelatine several times on other things but a normal hide glue which schould by like hide glue and not gelatine, gives stronger bond. Yes on wooden bows the sinew takes much less stress than on a hornbow. U are the master I'm just a beginner after few years in this, but reading the forums every day and if I remember well, about the 80% of sinew work which failed made by gelatine and not with hide or bladder glue.
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I use the knox gelatin glue for sinew backing a bow. The only failure I had was my fault for not degreasing properly. I used cooking oil while heat straightening and didn't get it cleaned enough before sinewing. After getting it degreased, I sinew backed it again with knox and it has held ever since.
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Personally I've always felt that a natural glue is better for performance than the modern plastic glues even in hard backed bows, I use plastic because it is convenient. The unknown with plastic glues is their rate of return after being stretched and/or how will being stretched repeatedly affect them. Will they return to their original configuration as fast as natural glues once they are stretched? Do they have the same elasticity as natural glues? After repeated stretching will they have the same molecular shape or will their molecules be permanently stretched. Sinew and hide glue can be stretched up to 4%. Can sinew and plastic glues be stretched as much without being adversely affected? I know that TB3 will shear when used on horn in a horn bow, hide glue does not. Obviously plastic glues will fail at a much lower stress level.
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Hide glue have hellical molecule structure and PVA glues have not. They have different characteristic and the modern glues can't do the same thing. So Marc point the most important thing in this.
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ok, so my question now is, will the titebond hide glue work ok for a sinew backing? of course, regular hide glue is best, but on the last two posts, got me thinking i should try titebond hideglue instead of titebond 2 for sinew backing..
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I dont know the TB hide glue. But if a hide glue could use for long time it have to be preserve it somehow. If it made chemical (I dont know other method) way than it will be weaker than the original structure.
I ve read my books again and, just found good things from gelatine(long molecule structure,high elasticity and strong bond). So I have to change my negative opinion I ve wrote from it. I will give it a go on a wooden bow to see what happen but dont want to risk it on a hornbow. I ve used gelatine just in my work as a paint restorer. Still think it is weaker than those I ve used on bows before. Will see....
I ve used rabit hide glue, hide glue, bladder glue and PVA, epoxi glues on bows. Just the first three for sinewing and some tests with PVA.
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in terms of the water proofing of the old ways... I had a conversation with Jaap about this. He had a horn bow, a really old one, that he wanted to study so he soaked with with water for days and still had trouble getting the glues to give away so he could dismantle it. He has it all in a frame showing the construction. I like the old ways better and think they were done for a reason. I have TBIII and TBII on hand but I like making my own glues from sinew and fish bladders. Also like the color better when they dry and believe the part about the chemical nature and how they are made of the same material as sinew so they should bind better than a manufactured product. I also like Ed Scott and his bows are great and he is welcome to do it how he likes ;D
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I wish I could find a good source for fish bladders. I like the color of the fish bladder glue as well as the properties. I also like the tb hide glue, I used to use nothing but liquid bottled fish glue I bought from lee valley years ago and had pretty good luck with that. It tended to feel tacky when my hands got sweaty and that was my only real complaint about it.
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I could hook you up with that Steve. They have bags full of them at the markets here. Not super cheap but not outrageous either. I think I paid about $15 for a good sized zip lock bag of them. Someone else wanted some so I am going to go pick some up soon.
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When I sinew back a bow with Tight Bond, I will thin it way down and lay it on the bow. Then I will come back and put multiple layers of TB3 to help with moisture. And I have taken TB3 and stretched a piece that was about four inches long into a rubber band about 8". And, there is no way, till further research ;), I would try to glue a horn bow up with anything than GOOD hide glue if I wanted it to last for 400 years.
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When I sinew back a bow with Tight Bond, I will thin it way down and lay it on the bow. Then I will come back and put multiple layers of TB3 to help with moisture.
Do you mean you size the bow first with TBIII, or that you lay the glue-soaked sinew down first and then layer more TBIII on top to help water proof it?
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id like to know your secret as well! lol. does anyone think you could put multiple layers of sinew on with tite bond? or should you build it up the way you need to all at once? this is a good experiment for what im doing..
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Kegan, I'll size it first, and then run the sinew through a bowl with thinned down Tight Bond, squeezing the excess with my fingers and lay it down.
Aero, no secrets, it's just simple. Be sure one layer is dry before you put one on top of it. And it takes a longer time to dry than you would think.
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Mullet I ve done a very simillar experiment. Just not on a bow.
Try out abot 5-6 kind of D3 PVA glues I could by hear. Put a fat layer on a silicone paper and let tham dry for weeks at a warm, place.
All of tham was pulled with the same weight and with hand too. Some of tham was better, but all of tham stretch like rubber just not turn back for the same size as rubber do.
PVA glues working fine if use it a very thin layer, like between two compressed wood. In a sinewing process U couldn't press all the glue out so it will contain a relative big procent of glue.
One of my learned friend wrote her thesis from PVA glues in paint restauration and she done a lot of experiment. All of tham was dryed out and streched in controlled conditions. She had the same conclusion like me.
The best I find here is a Pattex D3 PVA wood glue for all wood. It was the best (harder and less strechy) in my experiments and in this thesis too. I use this in my work and for bows nocks etc. It is still not enough strong for lamination so I think TB III schould be stronger.
I couldn't by TB glues here :(
Another important thing! All PVA glues could form with heat. So if U push a piece with hot iron (between silicon paper) it will melt a bit at about 60-80C.
I dont think it is a good thing if use the bow on a warm sunny day ;)