Uncut with Ed Scott...interesting point on glue for sinew backing

[Marc St Louis]

I wouldn't be the best person to make such a bow Todd as I may be a bit prejudiced in the other direction.  This could affect the outcome and/or people wouldn't believe me if by chance my findings were such that it discredited the use of TB3.  Someone that has an interest in a positive outcome would be the best person to make such a bow.  Anyway, it sounds to me like it's as important to you as it is to me   perhaps more so.  

Another thing, if you can't tell the difference between a bow that has been sinew backed with hide glue and one sinew backed with TB3 then you must not be that familiar with the process and looks of the finished product.  I've never used TB with sinew but I have used it with linen string backing, I've also used hide glue, and there is a noticeable difference in the look of the finished product

I'm sure TB can be used and said so in my other post.  I'm just debating the claim that it works as well, something that to me needs to be proven.

[mullet]

I'll rephrase what I said, I haven't been able to tell the difference in performance between the two, unless the humidity is high. Then I'll leave the hide glued bow at home. And I haven't seen a 100% water proof seal yet. As far as looks, I'll cover most of my sinew backed bows with skins or bark.

[Traxx]

Yeah Mullet,
Ed covers his sinew jobs with a thin rawhide.Its for protection as well as a smooth surface for decoration.

[aero86]

i could imagine you could make a chinese styel bow, with siyahs with tb3.  straight limbed, sinew backed..  as a matter of fact, ive been kicking around different ideas about how to make my next bow, i might just put it all together with tb3. 

but, my question is, doesnt tb3 usually need a decent compression for a good bond?  if so, how would you do that with the sinew?

[blackhawk]

In another thread on another forum Justin Scott chimed in with his take on using TB3 with sinew. Ill post his response word for word here. Which is pretty much coming from the horses mouth.


I quote.

"TitebondII and III increase drying time rather than decreasing it. Yes the sinew and glue will be "hard dry" in a month and you can shoot the bow but it will take 5-8 months to fully dry. The water resistant glues slow the rate of moisture loss from the sinew. It will get dry enough fairly quickly to eliminate decomposition concerns but significant moisture loss remains to slowly dissipate through the wood and the "skin" of the titebond. ..................Ed Scott has been using TB3 exclusively for some years but he did use TB2 previously.

"Many sinew users are doing more of a sinew lining than a sinew backing. This isn't bad or wrong-a thin course will protect the back and add draw weight and cast. A true sinew back has sinew doing almost all of the tension work....which means a lot of sinew..after drying a third or more of the limbs thickness is sinew/glue matrix. ........."    End quote.


So it sounds like Ed floor tillers a bow either before or after using a caul to shape it then backs it with a lot of sinew(almost a third of the limbs thickness),then let's them cure for almost 8 months before he tillers?


I have sinewed once and I used TB3. I have two bow staves that are gonna be sinewed at the same time with hide glue just to see what/if any differences there is between the two.

So far its hard to really say any real conclusion can be made on this debate without hard data collected. Even a chrono might not tell all the truth. Because you can heat treat a stave into reflex and sinew with TB3 and come up with the same profile as a straight bow pulled into reflex by hide glue/sinew.

I think its too little of a difference between the two to make a difference. And it all depends on personal preference on what you want the sinew to do on the back of your bow.

This debate will continue on for who knows how long or till some other glue is invented and used too.

Just my long winded two cents

[Marc St Louis]

I'll rephrase what I said, I haven't been able to tell the difference in performance between the two, unless the humidity is high. Then I'll leave the hide glued bow at home. And I haven't seen a 100% water proof seal yet. As far as looks, I'll cover most of my sinew backed bows with skins or bark.

Looks to me like you are the perfect candidate for testing Eddie

[PEARL DRUMS]

Speed kills fella's, thats why we shoot wooden bows!

[osage outlaw]

I'm no expert at all, but it seems like hide glue shrinks as it dries and creates reflex in the bow.  TB doesn't shrink, so you have to create the reflex in the bow before sinew backing it.  That is how I have always looked at the difference between the two. 


A little off topic, but Mr. Scott uses watered down TB as a finish over his snake skins.  It is a flat finish, but it sure looks sharp.  It's smooth too, you can't even feel the scales.

[Lee Slikkers]

Not to interject another item into the fray but what about TB's Hide Glue...anyone use that or have any opinions on that as an option?

[ohma2]

i have used tite bond 111 on all my sinewed bows  recurves and flatbows and they all shoot great.and not a one has failed. im not going to get into a whos makin the fastest bow debate but mine shoot above normal and stay consistent .i would recomend tite bond for sinew to anyone.

[fusizoli]

I just like to say one thing. Glues like hide , sinew or fish bladder glue are the best natural collagen glues. This is the perfect material for glue  a  collagen like sinew. They are both collagenes and working together perfectly. This is a very old fact!

TB glues schould be very good but they are PVA glues and not a natural collagen. I ve made some tests vith PVA glues I could by here and all of tham was strechy more or less. They have other molecule structure than collagens.
May natural glues are not water resistant but have been working fine for thousand years, so I dont think it have to change for a new modern material.
But, we have new coatings, varnishes for protect surfaces from water so I would change that.


On the other forum, we hade the same discussion. There a guy (2Traxx) sad who knows Edd, he use hide glue too. Just use this TB glues for that bows which owner lives at a humid area. He like to give a 100%garantie for his bows. So he use both glues as I know.

My opinion, if a sinew backing (with natural glue) is protected with any raw hide and a good top coat than it could use at any climate. (not include rain forest   )
Zoltan

[George Tsoukalas]

My $ 0.02, which is coming from someone who will not hunt with a bow backed with anything but coming from someone who made a living teaching the scientific method, is one would have to prove that Mr Scott's bows shoot better with hide glue vs wood glue. To do this Mr Scott would have to make a sinew backed bow(hide glue)  and a sinew backed bow using wood glue. These bows would have to be identical (difficult to do, I know) in every way. The chrono would have to be used to test both with the same arrow. Just saying. Scientifically speaking... Jawge

[Marc St Louis]

That is sort of my way of thinking as well George.  If one is going to make a claim then one should back it up with hard facts

[PEARL DRUMS]

Who made the speed claim to start with? Am I missing something from the original question that was posted? I thought he wanted to know if it TBIII would hold the sinew down.

[JackCrafty]

Hmmmm...sounds like an interesting test.