Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Minuteman on March 09, 2007, 08:58:51 pm

Title: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Minuteman on March 09, 2007, 08:58:51 pm
OK i'm starting on a laminated hikree backed hikree bow to get the kinks worked out of my laminated bow making technique or lack thereof.Wanna work out my gluing and  clamping process before I start using the real purdy stuff!
 What I've got as a test bow is 2 slats 66" long, one being roughly 5/16" and the other 1/8". Figger on reflexing the outer third of the tip into a mild curve maybe 2 inches ahead of the handle er so.
 ?#1--What I'm wonderin ???( and I think I know the answer ) is  do you have to have a raised  section on the belly side of the belly slat to keep the laminated handle from popping off? Right now its flat. :'(
 I'm thinking that I'll drill two 1/4" holes through the whole handle , where the handle wrap will be and set osage dowels in epoxy to keep it all together . Could that work? :-[
 My elbow has been killing me lately so I'm trying to figure out a way to make a bow with out making it worse. Jobs hard enough on it.
 Chris
 
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Ryano on March 09, 2007, 09:41:40 pm
Yes, that would work but you could achieve the same thing by working the fade down into the limb after glue up and before tillering...
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Minuteman on March 09, 2007, 10:01:54 pm
Thought about that Ryan O'. Thing is its a mighty thin limb as it stands before taking it down .Don't know what weight I'll hit . I guess I could always glue another slat on the back or belly to gain a little more weight, huh?
 This whoel laminated bow thing doesn't feel natural to me ... sure is a lot less work though.
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Justin Snyder on March 09, 2007, 10:29:02 pm
Put a power lamination in that is just longer than the handle will be. That will help stop the bow from bending in the handle area and take some of the stress of the glued on riser joint.  Justin
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: DCM on March 09, 2007, 10:48:19 pm
If I am reading you right, 5/16" + 1/8" ain't enough to make a bow.  That's 7/16" total.  That might be enough for a light bow if wide, but you'll need to make the handle lams 14" or so and build up to at least 1 1/4" deep in the handle.  Unless you can abide an unusually wide and flat handle.  How wide are the lams?
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Minuteman on March 10, 2007, 08:00:16 pm
Hey Mims.
 Yeah the lams are 2" wide right at the handle. They taper to 1/2" at the tips in straight lines. I'm thinking it might be less than 50# but thats ok. Like I said before I'm trying to get my kinks worked out so I can make a couple to hunt with this fall. The handle comes out to 1 1/2 " total ,back to belly to give a little raspin' room for handle shaping.Its gonna be series of black walnut and hikree lams, each  3/8" thick roughly .

 Built a form this afternoon. Its 72" long, the middle 24"  is straight then it curves down to 3 inches of reflex, if it were a 72" bow. At 66" its gonna be less then 3" prolly more like 2 & a little bit.( Built it long for my hik backed cherry ALB)
 How much draw weight does the reflex add? Some where I think I read 10 pounds per inch of reflex? May be remembering that wrong.Straighten me out!
 How much working  limb do you need for a 28" draw? I mean if I get the limb working right at the fades how much limb do I need ?
 You've seen Marc's bows with those super short fades straight to the limb in very little length. Some of 'em look like they make the transition from full depth handle to full width  limb in less than an inch! Thats kinda what I'm shootin' for.
 Any ideas are welcome. I know very little bout this laminated bow business.
 Chris
 
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: DCM on March 10, 2007, 08:52:20 pm
Me neither Chris but you sound like you are on track.  I don't generally do abupt fades.  For a 2" bow it would need to be pretty aggressive.  I tend to use some width taper to achieve the same effect, letting it work into the fades.  Don't forget fades and handle will flex, ever so slightly.  I think at 2" you get get over 50#.  Not sure how the ratio, fairly steep backing to belly will play out.  You'll want the wide wood to work, the relfex on the outer limb will help you there.
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Minuteman on March 11, 2007, 10:47:38 am
What about the reflex? How much weight does an inch of reflex add to the bow? Generally speaking...
 Anybody experienced a marked difference between hickory heartwood and the sapwood?
 Chris.
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Marc St Louis on March 11, 2007, 11:57:44 am
Chris
Just put a 1/8" thick lam between the backing and the core that extends to the end of the handle or just past
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Pat B on March 11, 2007, 12:03:13 pm
Hickory heartwood seem to be a bit more brittle than the sapwood. I haven't used much heardwood  so this is what I have heard and not from experience.   Pat
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Justin Snyder on March 11, 2007, 04:35:13 pm
Chris, here is the lamination Marc is talking about. I have never had a failure at the handle area on a bow with this lamination. Reflexing will add weight, but its hard to say how much. It varies with each piece of wood.  I would glue it up with some perry reflex, but I think with that thickness you will be well over 50#.  Justin

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Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Minuteman on March 23, 2007, 12:35:19 pm
Well here's the update  :)
 The smooth on held and I've been fussin' over the glue up for awhile now. Its been on the tree a coupla times. The extra lam in the handle is holding things together just fine.The reflexed tips are perplexing me. Got some walnut tip overlays on and rasped to rough shape.
  Trying to figger out how to tiller with a random orbit sander. Got tendinitis in my elbow.... stinks...
 This is the first bow in a long time I've made with a shorter lower limb.
 How much difference in limb length is normal? I've got about 1 1/4" more limb in the upper one.
 I'll post some pics soon, after I get some more limb movement in it.
 Chris
 
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Minuteman on March 28, 2007, 08:56:09 am
Well I wish I'd really looked at the pics Justin provided . ???I'm on dial up so I frequently  don't wait for pics to dribble onto the monitor, takes too long. >:(
 I thought the "power" lam went on the belly side. :-[ Thats where I put it and it SEEMS to be working. I actually let the pics come up this morning and saw what ya'll were talking about.
 The bow is still together and its been tillered as well as I can do. Wasn't really much tillerin to do with the limbs bein pyramid style and all. Just had to remove a littl efrom one limb toeven things up a bit.
 I may do the drill and dowel the handle thing just for insurance.I'll try to get my wife to teach me how to post pics soon.
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Minuteman on March 29, 2007, 04:49:14 pm
I may just be too impatient for this bow making stuff.
 Bows aren't suppoed to make tik noises right? ??? :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Pat B on March 29, 2007, 04:59:22 pm
Can you isolate where the tik is coming from. Maybe you could catch it before it gets too bad. Sometimes a simple wrap can be the remedy.   Pat
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Agbowyer on March 29, 2007, 06:07:48 pm
Hickory heartwood seem to be a bit more brittle than the sapwood. I haven't used much heardwood  so this is what I have heard and not from experience.   Pat

This has been my experience as well, but I have heard other people say different. I tried making two bows with hickory heartwood, and both snapped. Never had a problem with hickory sapwood.
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Minuteman on March 29, 2007, 09:53:12 pm
Thanks Ag, but its all sapwood. just havin a run of bad breaks lately. Learnin' to laminate isn't as easy as I thought.
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Agbowyer on March 30, 2007, 02:26:11 am
Chris you hang in there. Its been said a hundred times on here by guys who've been making bows a long time (like Pat's 200+ years) that if you aint breakin you aint makin. I've got a corner of shame just like Pappy and most others. Study the area that's a problem and see if there's not a nick or knot or swirl or something that caused it. Even if you don't find the problem, chalk it up to experience and start over. You'll be fine.... Chris
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Coo-wah-chobee on March 30, 2007, 02:33:45 am
        "damm, Pat's 200+ years"....then again if you saddle and ride "meglasaurus" :D........bob
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Minuteman on March 30, 2007, 08:36:17 am
Ya'll leave Pat alone! >:(
 He;s helped me out a bunch on this laminatin' business. ;D
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Agbowyer on March 30, 2007, 01:09:05 pm
Maybe that's the problem ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Minuteman on March 30, 2007, 09:54:23 pm
HEY , wait a minute!
    PAT!!! :o :o :o :o
 :D
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Pat B on March 31, 2007, 12:56:09 am
Sheesh!!! I don't get no respect! :'(   Pat(the sensitive one) d:^)
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Minuteman on March 31, 2007, 10:54:04 am
Yer alright in my book, Pat. The bow seems to have settled down some . Couldn't find any spots where it was lifting up and splinters or any thing soI'm gonna check it over good and put it back on the tree this evening. Scratch that I left it on the porch last night and it rained so its going back in the hot box for a while then I'll break it, uh I mean tiller it out the rest of the way. :P
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Dano on March 31, 2007, 11:02:43 am
I bet that little tick your hearing is coming from the handle at the fades, putting the power lam on the belly side doesn't do any good, and it may eventually pop off as the bow bends into the fades. I'd like to be an opptimist, but I've had my share of em pop off. Keep after it Chris, I know you got it in ya.
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Minuteman on March 31, 2007, 01:38:32 pm
Doggone it Dano you are astounding lemme tell ya! My brother came over and I bent that bow a little floor tiller style and heard another tik. Looked it over and it had tossed up a splinter right at the fades.Looking at the time of your post ,you made the call before it happened.
 Dano the Psychic Bowyer!!
 Better than being the psychotic bowyer. :D
 Yeah I needed to do the handle section right and put the power lam under the backing but that was only part of the problem . I was trying out a real abrupt flare style that called for a quick transition from the handle to the full limb width and didn't leave enough wood depth in the handle to keep it from bending. I could feel the handle bending so I knew it was gonna pop off eventually.
  Thanks guys I'll keep after it and see what all I can learn.
 Chris
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Springbuck on October 28, 2015, 02:22:37 pm
Chris
Just put a 1/8" thick lam between the backing and the core that extends to the end of the handle or just past

Exactly, a power lam.  But, just to specify, it needs to taper out to nothing out past the handle. :P  Doesn't take much.

The thing with dowels doesn't work a lot better than just gluing on the handle lams, IME.  I have had success with it on lighter weight bows, low 40's max, by angling the dowels through so they come out on the handle closer together than on the front.  It's not the best way, though.  A real fadeout, created by the power lam,or by starting with a belly lam at least 1/8" thicker than needed works.

Lastly, some are saying the thickness you have total there is not enough, but if you put reflex, recurves, or R/D in it, esp with Perry reflex, it will be.   I glue up most of my laminated bows with a 3/8" belly of something really good, and an 1/8" inch backing.
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: bubby on October 28, 2015, 02:38:39 pm
This post is from '07
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: GB on October 28, 2015, 03:53:33 pm
If only we could travel back in time and help him save his bow... ;D
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Pat B on October 28, 2015, 04:04:03 pm
When I saw this I was wondering if Chris(Minuteman) was back on. Last time I saw him was in the Parker Family Photo taken the first year I went to the Tenn. Classic. Boy, that was a lifetime ago!  ::)
Title: Re: hickory lam. bow /raised @ the handle
Post by: Onebowonder on October 30, 2015, 06:28:46 pm
Still got that Megalosaurus Pat?  😜😎👀

OneBow