Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: sander on September 27, 2009, 11:49:42 pm
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Hi everyone have been enjoying all the wonderful bows and the great bow building
knowledge represented here. Trying to build my first bow and realized too late a bad mistake. I stepped on one limb when trying to brace it with a bow string the first time. Thought I heard a faint pop wasn't sure got a crack on the back mid limb when pulling 55 lbs with stick and scale. This was very dissapointing, I got this stave 7 years ago and had taken forever reducing the belly with a
cabinet scraper. I know about following one ring and had done that on the back. I used the
cabinet scraper and got rid of most if not all of the splinters. This took me I am guessing halfway
through the good ring. I was considering glueing a small patch of sinew or a shaving of wood
on this area to try shore up this area of the bow. Thoughts greatly appreciated. I am wondering
if the bow was also on the dry side it was finding a regular home in the hot box. Thanks Sander
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Pictures would help, which way does the crack run?
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Thanks for the response Dano. I will try to post a picture later. You wont see any crack it
was shallow splinters that ran towards the tip. I scraped them off so the wood appears smooth
but I probably needs some stiffening up in that area as I weakend that spot. The area I scraped
is around 1.5 inches long. Thanks again, Sander
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Not sure if it will be of any help but heres a picture of the area where I got the crack/splinters.
I think a minute amount of splinters may remain. Should I glue them down and back it or shave it
more to eliminate all splinters and then back. I am looking too shore up this area so the tiller wont
be affected. Thanks in advance for any replies this begginer needs some advice. Sander
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if thats on the back of the bow
then i would recomend chasing that ring all the way down to the next one
i would rather have a bow thats gonna last,even if the weight is lighter than planned
than a bow thats gona blow jmho
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Sailordad thanks for your reply. I thought of that route myself but I really hesitate to go that
way because the rings are thick and nearer the tips I only have two rings showing on the sides
so with more wood I agree that would be my best solution. I am leaning toward risking failure
and trying to glue on sinew a shaving of wood even fiberglass etc. and maybe backing with
rawhide do you or anyone know of any successes going this way. I dont believe I have
completely violated the ring but its possible minute cracks do go through. Thanks again, Sander
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Those were or are drying checks probably, if they don't run off the side of the limb I would just supper glue them and go on, but now it does look like you have violated the ring. If you don't want to chase the entire ring, you could back it with rawhide.
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Dano, what do you think about applying a layer of sinew over the damaged area with
tightbond two and then a rawhide backing. Since the rest of the bow is ok couldnt I just cover the damaged area with a 4" rawhide patch. Would sinew strengthen the area and act as a replacement for the lost wood? Thanks for your thoughts Dano
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I'd back the entire bow with rawhide if it was me, looking at your picture. On some staves you'll find that you can't just scrape a ring flat, you need to use a goose neck scraper, it has multiple round edges to use. That way you get into the valleys better. To me it looks like there's a lot of early wood left on the back, and in some places some latewood. The bow might hold up just fine like that. I remember the first osage selfbow I saw, it had a ton of violations, it was real dark like it had been around a few years, but if it were me I'd feel a whole lot better with a solid back, one with a good ring or backing. A patch will always look like a patch.
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Hey Dano you are right I left streaks of early wood all over the bow. I was trying to be careful
not to get into the late wood and it is definitly possible I left a few spots of that also. Thanks for the suggestion on the gooseneck scraper, I think Im going to get one. Believe me though I
spent alot of time on this stave and tried to do it right. Do snake skins provide any protection
if glued on if I decided to patch the area with sinew and rawhide? Thanks Again
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It looks like to me that the obround area in the center of the picture has been ring violated. Snake skins themselves won't add any protection although the glue holding them will provide some. I'd probably instead go with a sinew wrap in that area, and then rawhide glued on the back if there isn't enough wood left to chase to the next grain.
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GregB thanks for the answer. Yeah I got into the ring maybe halfway when I shaved away
the crack and splinters. I think I can still see a trace of splinters. So far nobody has recommended
shaving more to assure all splinters are gone wasnt sure if that is a good idea or not. When you
say a sinew wrap are you recommending going all the way around back and belly and glueing it down? I guess going around the belly would also help in stiffening the limb.
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Yes, we have on occasion with a splinter lifted up, have gone around the limb with a sinew band. This is a little different with the larger area that you would need to span on either side of that obround spot about an inch. That would be a pretty large area to cover. Pappy has done this in the past several times. Just wet the sinew and wrap it. He may also put some super glue or hide glue worked in with the sinew. In this case I think I would also put on a rawhide backing. Of course chasing a ring and removing the problem would be the best solution if possible.
There are options to increase the weight going that route like heat treating the belly and/or shortening the limb length.
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Greg B, thanks again for your response. I took your suggestion on the sinew wrap. I decided
to dig out all the splinters I could see In two areas that went a bit deeper. Never got completely
through the ring. Little bigger than a pencil eraser in width I put some titebond 2 in the depression
then a piece of sinew more glue and repeated several times covering the area with glue and sinew
I then gave the whole area a sinew wrap glued down with titebond. I heated the area before the
glue to open up the pores. Included a picture of the repair. I feel good about the effort and
if it doesnt hold up I will take it as a good learning experience and start another bow. I live i
near St. Louis MO and and wondering if over drying had something to do with the bow problem
my hot box is around 97 degrees not sure how often it should stay in there.
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You do have some serious ring violations on that stave. In the second to last picture, for example, I see 3 rings. I'd get that taken care of and then if you are going to back, then back with rawhide but first take off that sinew patch. You can put it back on over the rawhide. Just mark the belly with a couple of light pencil lines as th=o where you want the patch. Jawge
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George thanks for trying to help out. Is the area where I shaved the stave down in rhe
middle of the picture to get rid of the splinters where you see the three rings. If there is a
ring violation under the glue and sinew patch are you saying it wont do the trick and only the
rawhide backing will work. I would appreciate if you would elaborate. The back was worked
5 or 6 years ago the early wood has turned dark and streaks much of the stave. Rawhide
backing may be in the cards do you know a good source. Thanks for your help.
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I'd clean up that early wood, and be sure you didn't violate a ring. It looks like the rings are pretty thick from your last picture. If you don't have a goose neck scraper yet you can use a pocket knife.
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By the look of that last pic your back isn't cleaned up yet. Kind of hard to tell if you violated a ring or not becaouse of all the islands of earlywood left, all that should go. If you need some help I also live near St. Louis. Where are you located? I am on the illinois side.
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sander, there are violations (or islands) in the last picture that are above and below the patch. Look closely and hopefully you'll se them. To me they look like more than some early wood left on. That picture really shows them. You may not need a rawhide backing. That's up to you. You have a really nice character laden stave there and I really want you to get a bow from it. . The patch you put on will hold the cracked side and violations under it. I suggested the rawhide because you already had some difficulty with it and seem to have a hard time seeing ring violations. it's ok. I've been there too. I do feel that beginners should back their first few for peace of mind. Sorry about the confusion. It's hard teaching over the computer like that. Stay at it with questions until you see the violations (or islands as Jbell put it). BTW they looks pretty easy to clean up with a scraper. Now the crack. I'm wondering if you really needed to move those limbs with heat or if the string would have fallen on the handle as is before the heat. leave nocks wide and handle full width until at least the first stringing and why not until full draw. The you can bring the string over without heat. I can elaborate if you want tomorrow. Time for bed now. :)Jawge
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Good to hear from you again Dano. Jbell I live in Eureka MO thanks for your offer. I would lilke
to show you the bow I am trying to make. I would really enjoy seeing your bows if you have
made some. Where do you live in Illinois? This stave came from your state I bought it from
a talented flintknapper. George I know you have great experience and I value your advice.
Thanks for clearing up what you meant. The stave has some bumps in it and goes from a high
narrow crown in places to sloping off sharply one direction and then the other on the limb in
question. The rings though are nice and thick. Using my cabinet scraper I didnt own a gooseneck
I would work through the early ring hit the shiny latewood and not attempt to get all the early
as I heard it doesnt' hurt to leave some. I think the stave followed the ring pretty well. Thats
the best I can tell. I am leaning a bit toward backing it anyway I have watched it sit in the corner
for years, worked on it and put it back looking forward to getting a bow out of it. I don't want it
to break. Wondering what the correct definition of a violated ring is all the way through, halfway?
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All the way through is a violated ring, Shredder. Yes, a curved scraping tool is almost essential. To, me those islands look more than just a little early wood. But you can see better than I can. You're probably younger with better eyesight. LOL. :) Jawge
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Hey George, thanks for clarifying the ring violation for me. Well I don't know if you called
me shredder instead of sander on purpose but if the bow blows up on me I might start using
that name in your honor. LOL I did try scraping a bit of the early wood with a knife as I was
considering that you could all see a cleaned up back as I know some of you think there may be
ring violations. Wondering if you could just use sandpaper on the earlywood I know its bad
for a scraper but if I am done with it what do you say. Sander
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Hey sander I live in Greenville Illinois. We are about an hour and a half apart. I sure could meet with ya sometime if you like. I am no expert but I have enough experience to help ya out.....hopefully ;) Just let me know.
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Hey Justin, do you know Ed Garrison, from Vandalia?
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I hope the patch doesn't turn out to be just a practice experience. I was hoping you'd have enough wood to chase a ring full length on your bow. That would be the best route to go if you have enough wood left. If not, sinew backing it would probably be your next best option... a rawhide backing as a third. I don't think I would finish the bow without some sort of backing or you may find yourself with multiple patches if the bow doesn't completely give way first. I know you have a lot of time invested in the bow, even if it turns out lite-weight, that's better then it potentially breaking. Always more wood, and sounds like you have a fellow bowyer nearby for a second set of eyes and advice. That can be helpful... :)
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Jbell thanks again for your offer. I would appreciate another set of eyes. I would drive to your place or you could come to my house and I could take you to a place to archery hunt for deer
in the evening. I use a compound for that. That could change in the future. Greg I am not expecting this bow to be a screaming performer I think it is more osage sapwood not the real dark core wood and I realized too late you aren't supposed to draw it past its draw weight while tillering. Right now there is less than an inch of set but when it was on the tillering tree and pulled 25" or so it came off with an inchor two more of deflex and then would go back to where it is now. Some questions I know could be another whole thread is how long to keep it in my 97degree hot box to keep the moisture low while not getting dry. I had it in there alot. Also any harm in sanding off some earlywood I wouldguess not . Any good sources for nice thin rawhide? I have an idea on decorating the back I will keep to myself till I post the bow when done. Its nice how you guys are willing to help a new guy. Maybe I can return the favor someday. Sander
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Sander, I remove all the honey-comb looking winter growth that I can with a scraper lightly and then sand the back down really smooth. If you're planning to back the bow with something, then you may not want to sand as smoothly as you would if leaving the natural wood as the back. Especially with sinew where you might leave it rough for the glue to adhere to.
When we're working on a bow that is unsealed, during that timeframe of building it that may take several weeks, we leave it in a hot box or at a minimum over an airconditioner vent. All depends on how dry we think the wood is.
As for rawhide, you might get on the trading post section and see if anyone would be willing to trade you a piece.
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Hey Justin, do you know Ed Garrison, from Vandalia?
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I have heard of him. He is a glass bower right? I think he used to be my uncles neighbor in Hagerstown but I could be wrong.
You come back and visit much?
Sander, I am available evenings and sunday afternoons usually. Wife works weekends and I watch the kids, one being 7 months old. ;D
Just let me know and ill shoot ya my address. I can show ya a bow or two also. ;)
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Thanks for the info Greg. Sounds good Jbell I have kids also. Took many of yours
advice and started cleaning up some earlywood and found I did have thin layers of latewood
on the back here and there. This has all been a good learning experience thanks again.
You guys have some good eyes. Jbell I have a Osage limb I was wondering if I could make a bow out of I will bring it when I visit you. I have to plan when. Sander