Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: bigcountry on March 17, 2009, 11:59:32 pm
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Ok, this is an osage I have put away (because I was angry over a hinge) and decided to come back too a few months later. I developed a hinge in the right limb about 8-10" from the tip. AFter hours of scrapin, I think I got it out. Here she is at 24". She is 66" NTN and a mere 38lbs at 29". I dropped over 14lbs getting that hinge out. I plan on piking 1.3" of each tip, and laying 3 courses of sinew. This should get her back up to fightin wieght. A lot of people told me I should not worry about the hinge and just lay extra sinew there. But I didn't want to start sinewing until that hinge was gone, or at least not as bad. Maybe I wasted my time, maybe I didn't.
So my question. Does she look that bad? And should I go ahead and pike, and plan on sinew? Or should I make any more adjustments before moving forward?
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn73/bigcountry_ky/OsageBuildalong/Osage24inch.jpg)
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Oh yea, one more thing, the tips have been reflexed before I got the hinge.
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You need 5 more inches and I'd get it by getting more bending close to the handle area. I wouldn't remove any more wood from mid limb on. Jawge
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You need 5 more inches and I'd get it by getting more bending close to the handle area. I wouldn't remove any more wood from mid limb on. Jawge
I hate putting on a tiller tree at a full 29". Just scared to death to hear that "tick". I am just wondering if I should make adjustments before piking and sinewing. I measured the wieght to be 38" at 29".
The reason I didn't take more close to the handle is I was told to tiller to the top profile. It is staight 1.75" for 10" then pyamids to the tips. Is this thinking off?
So you think I should get the tiller perfect before sinewin?
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Even though the wide portion of the limb goes out 10" it still has to bend and take some of the stresses off the rest of the limb. The fade area is the transition between the non bending(handle) portion of the bow and the bending(limb) portion of the bow. Your bend should begin where the limb exits the fade.
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Even though the wide portion of the limb goes out 10" it still has to bend and take some of the stresses off the rest of the limb. The fade area is the transition between the non bending(handle) portion of the bow and the bending(limb) portion of the bow. Your bend should begin where the limb exits the fade.
So you think I should fix it before piking and sinewing? Or wait until after. My main objective was to get out the hinge before. But if you guys think I should fix it, I might rethink things.
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I understand now that you have had it to 29", Big. I'm confused by this,
"It is staight 1.75" for 10" then pyamids to the tips. Is this thinking off?"
Let me ask you how much of the handle area you set up as your non bending handle area. If you wouldn't mind, describing the actual length of the handle proper and the fade area. That is also pretty wide for osage but that would have worked for you but it can be difficult tillering a very wide high density wood such as osage.
I have some reservations about piking a wood that was previously hinged but if you can't enjoy your bow as is then pike and sinew by all means.
Some bowyers like those long non bending handle areas. Typically the bows are left longer though than 66 in for your draw of 29". Good night. Jawge
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Personally I wouldn't waste sinew on this bow, its too long and any performance gained will be lost by the extra mass.
I would finish this one up and if its too light make it a gift to a kid :) As for the tiller matching the front view profile, your not completely confused
read Steve Gardners(badger) chapter in TBB Vol4 he explains it nicely, but in essence this design should have a eliptycal tiller as opposed to an
arc of circle tiller. Also as Jawge stated 1.75" is way to wide for osage, the wood gets to thin and its easy to get a hinge then.
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I understand now that you have had it to 29", Big. I'm confused by this,
"It is staight 1.75" for 10" then pyamids to the tips. Is this thinking off?"
Let me ask you how much of the handle area you set up as your non bending handle area. If you wouldn't mind, describing the actual length of the handle proper and the fade area. That is also pretty wide for osage but that would have worked for you but it can be difficult tillering a very wide high density wood such as osage.
I have some reservations about piking a wood that was previously hinged but if you can't enjoy your bow as is then pike and sinew by all means.
Some bowyers like those long non bending handle areas. Typically the bows are left longer though than 66 in for your draw of 29". Good night. Jawge
Here is the nonworking portion circled. Thanks for the advise.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn73/bigcountry_ky/OsageBuildalong/Osage24incha.jpg)
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Personally I wouldn't waste sinew on this bow, its too long and any performance gained will be lost by the extra mass.
I would finish this one up and if its too light make it a gift to a kid :) As for the tiller matching the front view profile, your not completely confused
read Steve Gardners(badger) chapter in TBB Vol4 he explains it nicely, but in essence this design should have a eliptycal tiller as opposed to an
arc of circle tiller. Also as Jawge stated 1.75" is way to wide for osage, the wood gets to thin and its easy to get a hinge then.
I plan on piking it to be 62-63" NTN. Still don't think it will worth it? :-\
I am rather confused. I thought wide was good for durability and no set. It was one of my first bows, so I wanted to overbuild it.
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It is on most white woods and weaker woods but Osage is very durable at a narrower with. Looks
pretty good to me,and if you pike it you will pick conservatively 2/3 lbs. per inch take off. Sinew
at a bad idea.there may be better candidates but I don't think it would be a waste of time. I over
build a lot myself,but I am not looking for speed,if I was I would be shooting something else. :)
Pappy
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Even at 62" I think sinew would be wasted, just my opinion others may disagree.
Every wood has different characteristics and abilities, so one size does not fit all. Osage being strong in tension and compression,
doesn't require wide widths 1 3/8 to 1 1/2" is plenty wide for a 64" NTN 29" draw length bow. Now the same bow in say maple would need to be
at least 1 3/4" to 2" wide and more like 68" long. Even with a species wood can be different from tree to tree.
If you don't have the Bowyers Bible 4 book set I suggest you buy them and start reading, you will lots :)
One thing about building bows is when you think you no something you realize you don't :D
Persevere buddy it does get easier ;)
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(http://home.comcast.net/~dcm4/pwpimages/ex1%281%29.JPG)
Sorry, I didn't read all the other reponses. But with good osage one can get a way with quite a bit. These two bows are 58" ntn to draw ~60# @ 28. I think they are inside of 1 1/2" wide at the fades.
You'll want to concentrate the bending more towards the inner limb as you reduce the lenght, and hopefully pick up what weight you'd like. At this point you might be able to heat bend a little more reflex into the bow, if it has not too much set so far from it's original shape. That would help w/ your tiller, if you concentrate the reflex on the outer limbs, and save you some wood, ie. draw weight. We're talking an inch or so here at the string grooves, nothing dramatic.
Your tiller is very close, were it not for the low draw weight you'd be done. As you shorten the limbs, this will naturally put the bending towards the inner limbs. I would not go below 60" ntn, depending upon how much bow you require. And I'd take it in two passes, 1" off each end each time. And be patient, and keep your wood dry, and work it very carefully, and rest it frequently. It's more like a seduction we're about here, rather than the old "breaking a horse to saddle" paradigm where we force our will upon the bow stave. Just listen to it, it wants to be a bow too.
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OMG, I should have read all the posts.
"The reason I didn't take more close to the handle is I was told to tiller to the top profile. It is staight 1.75" for 10" then pyamids to the tips. Is this thinking off?"
Uh-huh. Exactly backwards, not to mention 1/4" to generous on width. You want the wide wood to work. While you estimate the center 10" isn't working, as it's shaped like a handle, in fact the center 20" or more isn't working due to the generous width of the inner limbs. For 1 3/4" wood to bend a 38#, it would have to be inside of 1/2" thick. Ok perhaps for a red oak board, waste/mistuse of osage wood. To adjust for this, get that inner limb working, as mentioned above. Perhaps even take an 1/8" (1/16" per side) off the width to midlimb.
Please don't let my language seem critical or condesending. This is more or less a drive by, and my intentions are good. Sorry I don't have more time to devote.
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Big, I just am so confused. LOL. Perhaps you should narrow it down to 1.5 inches, shorten it to 63 inches nock to nock, and concentrate on getting the bending to start AT THE END OF the fades. It would be good practice for you. But a difficult thing to do for a beginner. You could back it with rawhide provided the back is smooth and has no knots. I would not waste time on sinew but I'm not a fan of the stuff so take my remarks with a grain of salt. I don't like piking either. I think it confuses the bow. I especially don't like piking a bow that has a problem like a hinge. BTW taking off an inch will get you 5# but stresses the bow which is already flawed. Narrowing the bow means you'll also loose weight. Let me know what you decide. It ain't easy being a beginner but mistakes are good when we learn from them. I make them all the time.
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The hinge is fixed George, as I understand it, which is why we are under weight. And you are right, we need to see the rested profile of the bow now, and another when the stave was still fresh before tillering in order to estimate the set taken, and likelihood the bow is game for higher energy storage. And look at the back ring thickness, and any blemishes, faults, knots etc. as well. Beginner is rough sledding, but informative. I thought about that when I suggested shortening, which I'm actually and very fond of when executed carefully, properly and under the right conditions. I think it can save some set actually.
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Funny thing you mention on set. When the bow was 55lbs, it had 1.5" of set. But the set has went away totally now that I took it to 38lbs. Found that strange. Maybe its my imagination.
Well, after careful consideration, and taking in everyones thoughts, I have decided to take more material off at the fade area to get it bending. Second, pike the bow to 62". Check tiller, and then make a decision after that on sinewing. I myself love sinewed bow if done properly (not by me). This would be my first sinew job. And I want to learn how. And I already have the sinew pulled apart and ready. Which was extremely time consuming.
Thanks for all who helped.
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David, hinges are never completely fixed in my view. There is always the possibility of belly wood damage. Big, have fun. This is the challenge of wood bows. Jawge
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Big, to avoid hinges try to refrain from taking off wood from certain, small area. Go beyond the area in question a little bit. When removing wood I often go the whole length of the limb. Jawge
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Would attempting a patch on the belly at the hinge point be worth a try. I have seen a patch glued on where the patch was thin enough to flex to match the belly surface for gluing, and then tillered as necessary. Seemed like it removed the hinge from the bow...anyone had experience with this process?
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:-[ I quit
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Patience, grasshopper. greg, he retillered the hinge out. I was just making a point. Sorry for the confusion. Respectfully, please do read the whole thread, everyone, before commenting. :) Jawge
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Don't give up Big.
Folks will continue to comment. As with all things, one must take in what is offered w/ a grain of salt, even the contradicting stuff.
But substantially, ideally, it's all about you buddy. At least in my humble opinion. It puts the self in selfbow, and no goal is more cherished than those won thru hard work and persistance in the face of adversity. At a minimum, start another project. That's what I do, very frequently. Helps to keep a fresh persecptive and to stay motivated/inspired.
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Don't give up Big.
Folks will continue to comment. As with all things, one must take in what is offered w/ a grain of salt, even the contradicting stuff.
But substantially, ideally, it's all about you buddy. At least in my humble opinion. It puts the self in selfbow, and no goal is more cherished than those won thru hard work and persistance in the face of adversity. At a minimum, start another project. That's what I do, very frequently. Helps to keep a fresh persecptive and to stay motivated/inspired.
I know, people are only trying to help. And I do appreciate everyone's help. I have 4 bows in the works right now. But this one has been yelling at me to come back and finish.
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"...this one has been yelling at me..."
Been there! It's a mixed blessing.
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I will send you a Tillerin' Gizmo Mr Big if you want one. Guaranteed, now more hinges if you use one and don't scrape off any more than your pencil lines between each check, scrape, flex and recheck session.
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I will send you a Tillerin' Gizmo Mr Big if you want one. Guaranteed, now more hinges if you use one and don't scrape off any more than your pencil lines between each check, scrape, flex and recheck session.
Thanks Eric, but after you showed a picture on trad gang last year, I made one of my own.
What I learned out of this hinge was to be careful around the stiff area of the tips. Even with the gizmo. I liked your idea so much I made for for top tillering that is a basic piece of wood with little blocks for standoffs so it works opposite.
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Any time I have a bow that is giving me fits or not going the way it should, I put it in "the corner of shame". That corner is full of bows screaming at me but I just ignore them until I am ready to deal with their particular circumstance. A few have been in THE CORNER for a few years now. Usually when they do get out of the corner they make respectable, good shooting bows. Fortunately I have other wood to start on and I'm sure some of them will be in the corner before they hit the field.
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Pat B,
your "coner of shame" would probably be my wall of glory..lol :D :D :D i would love to get some of those bows to play with and see if i could finish em.. ;) ;)
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Pat B,
your "coner of shame" would probably be my wall of glory..lol :D :D :D i would love to get some of those bows to play with and see if i could finish em.. ;) ;)
Thats what I was thinkin. I bet some would qualify as "a good bow" to some of us. ;D Maybe one day I can get there.
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I've got Big's personality. Bulldogs we are, Big. I stick with it too. I can't rest until I feel there is no chance of success. You haven't hear a pop yet so do it. I'm wich a. :) Jawge
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Don't give up, take a break then come back to it with a fresh perspective :) The school of hard knocks is tough but in the end
you learn lasting lessons that way. We all share your pain but also your sucesses :) Keep on keepin on eh ;)
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Oh, I am not giving up.