Osage Tiller Help

[bigcountry]

Ok, this is an osage I have put away (because I was angry over a hinge) and decided to come back too a few months later.  I developed a hinge in the right limb about 8-10" from the tip.  AFter  hours of scrapin, I think I got it out.  Here she is at 24".  She is 66" NTN and a mere 38lbs at 29".  I dropped over 14lbs getting that hinge out.  I plan on piking 1.3" of each tip, and laying 3 courses of sinew.  This should get her back up to fightin wieght.  A lot of people told me I should not worry about the hinge and just lay extra sinew there.  But I didn't want to start sinewing until that hinge was gone, or at least not as bad.  Maybe I wasted my time, maybe I didn't. 

So my question.  Does she look that bad?  And should I go ahead and pike, and plan on sinew?  Or should I make any more adjustments before moving forward?

[bigcountry]

Oh yea, one more thing, the tips have been reflexed before I got the hinge. 

[George Tsoukalas]

You need 5 more inches and I'd get it by getting more bending close to the handle area. I wouldn't remove any more wood from mid limb on. Jawge

[bigcountry]

You need 5 more inches and I'd get it by getting more bending close to the handle area. I wouldn't remove any more wood from mid limb on. Jawge

I hate putting on a tiller tree at a full 29".  Just scared to death to hear that "tick".  I am just wondering if I should make adjustments before piking and sinewing.  I measured the wieght to be 38" at 29". 

The reason I didn't take more close to the handle is I was told to tiller to the top profile.  It is staight 1.75" for 10" then pyamids to the tips.  Is this thinking off?

So you think I should get the tiller perfect before sinewin?

[Pat B]

Even though the wide portion of the limb goes out 10" it still has to bend and take some of the stresses off the rest of the limb. The fade area is the transition between the non bending(handle) portion of the bow and the bending(limb) portion of the bow. Your bend should begin where the limb exits the fade.

[bigcountry]

Even though the wide portion of the limb goes out 10" it still has to bend and take some of the stresses off the rest of the limb. The fade area is the transition between the non bending(handle) portion of the bow and the bending(limb) portion of the bow. Your bend should begin where the limb exits the fade.

So you think I should fix it before piking and sinewing?  Or wait until after.  My main objective was to get out the hinge before.  But if you guys think I should fix it, I might rethink things.

[George Tsoukalas]

I understand now that you have had it to 29", Big. I'm confused by this,
"It is staight 1.75" for 10" then pyamids to the tips.  Is this thinking off?"
Let me ask you how much of the handle area you set up as your non bending handle area. If you wouldn't mind, describing the actual length of the handle proper and the fade area. That is also pretty wide for osage but that would have worked for you but it can be difficult tillering a very wide high density wood such as osage.
I have some reservations about piking a wood that was previously hinged but if you can't enjoy your bow as is then pike and sinew by all means.
Some bowyers like those long non bending handle areas. Typically the bows are left longer though than 66 in for your draw of 29". Good night. Jawge

[DanaM]

Personally I wouldn't waste sinew on this bow, its too long and any performance gained will be lost by the extra mass.
I would finish this one up and if its too light make it a gift to a kid As for the tiller matching the front view profile, your not completely confused
read Steve Gardners(badger) chapter in TBB Vol4 he explains it nicely, but in essence this design should have a eliptycal tiller as opposed to an
arc of circle tiller. Also as Jawge stated 1.75" is way to wide for osage, the wood gets to thin and its easy to get a hinge then.

[bigcountry]

I understand now that you have had it to 29", Big. I'm confused by this,
"It is staight 1.75" for 10" then pyamids to the tips.  Is this thinking off?"
Let me ask you how much of the handle area you set up as your non bending handle area. If you wouldn't mind, describing the actual length of the handle proper and the fade area. That is also pretty wide for osage but that would have worked for you but it can be difficult tillering a very wide high density wood such as osage.
I have some reservations about piking a wood that was previously hinged but if you can't enjoy your bow as is then pike and sinew by all means.
Some bowyers like those long non bending handle areas. Typically the bows are left longer though than 66 in for your draw of 29". Good night. Jawge

Here is the nonworking portion circled.  Thanks for the advise.

[bigcountry]

Personally I wouldn't waste sinew on this bow, its too long and any performance gained will be lost by the extra mass.
I would finish this one up and if its too light make it a gift to a kid As for the tiller matching the front view profile, your not completely confused
read Steve Gardners(badger) chapter in TBB Vol4 he explains it nicely, but in essence this design should have a eliptycal tiller as opposed to an
arc of circle tiller. Also as Jawge stated 1.75" is way to wide for osage, the wood gets to thin and its easy to get a hinge then.

I plan on piking it to be 62-63" NTN.  Still don't think it will worth it?

I am rather confused.  I thought wide was good for durability and no set.  It was one of my first bows, so I wanted to overbuild it.

[Pappy]

It is on most white woods and weaker woods but Osage is very durable at a narrower with. Looks
pretty good to me,and if you pike it you will pick  conservatively 2/3 lbs. per inch take off. Sinew
at a bad idea.there may be better candidates but I don't think it would be a waste of time. I over
build a lot myself,but I am not looking for speed,if I was I would be shooting something else.
   Pappy

[DanaM]

Even at 62" I think sinew would be wasted, just my opinion others may disagree.

Every wood has different characteristics and abilities, so one size does not fit all. Osage being strong in tension and compression,
doesn't require wide widths 1 3/8 to 1 1/2" is plenty wide for a 64" NTN 29" draw length bow. Now the same bow in say maple would need to be
at least 1 3/4" to 2" wide and more like 68" long. Even with a species wood can be different from tree to tree.
If you don't have the Bowyers Bible 4 book set I suggest you buy them and start reading, you will lots
One thing about building bows is when you think you no something you realize you don't

Persevere buddy it does get easier

[DCM]

Sorry, I didn't read all the other reponses.  But with good osage one can get a way with quite a bit.  These two bows are 58" ntn to draw ~60# @ 28.  I think they are inside of 1 1/2" wide at the fades.

You'll want to concentrate the bending more towards the inner limb as you reduce the lenght, and hopefully pick up what weight you'd like.  At this point you might be able to heat bend a little more reflex into the bow, if it has not too much set so far from it's original shape.  That would help w/ your tiller, if you concentrate the reflex on the outer limbs, and save you some wood, ie. draw weight.  We're talking an inch or so here at the string grooves, nothing dramatic.  

Your tiller is very close, were it not for the low draw weight you'd be done.  As you shorten the limbs, this will naturally put the bending towards the inner limbs.  I would not go below 60" ntn, depending upon how much bow you require.  And I'd take it in two passes, 1" off each end each time.  And be patient, and keep your wood dry, and work it very carefully, and rest it frequently.  It's more like a seduction we're about here, rather than the old "breaking a horse to saddle" paradigm where we force our will upon the bow stave.  Just listen to it, it wants to be a bow too.

[DCM]

OMG, I should have read all the posts.

"The reason I didn't take more close to the handle is I was told to tiller to the top profile.  It is staight 1.75" for 10" then pyamids to the tips.  Is this thinking off?"

Uh-huh.  Exactly backwards, not to mention 1/4" to generous on width.  You want the wide wood to work.  While you estimate the center 10" isn't working, as it's shaped like a handle, in fact the center 20" or more isn't working due to the generous width of the inner limbs.  For 1 3/4" wood to bend a 38#, it would have to be inside of 1/2" thick.  Ok perhaps for a red oak board, waste/mistuse of osage wood.  To adjust for this, get that inner limb working, as mentioned above.  Perhaps even take an 1/8" (1/16" per side) off the width to midlimb. 

Please don't let my language seem critical or condesending.  This is more or less a drive by, and my intentions are good.  Sorry I don't have more time to devote.

[George Tsoukalas]

Big, I just am so confused. LOL. Perhaps you should  narrow it down to 1.5 inches, shorten it to 63 inches nock to nock, and concentrate on getting the bending to start AT THE END OF the fades. It would be good practice for you. But a difficult thing to do for a beginner. You could back it with rawhide provided the back is smooth and has no knots. I would not waste time on sinew but I'm not a fan of the stuff so take my remarks with a grain of salt. I don't like piking either. I think it confuses the bow. I especially don't like piking a bow that has a problem like a hinge. BTW taking off an inch will get you 5# but stresses the bow which is already flawed. Narrowing the bow means you'll also loose weight. Let me know what you decide. It ain't easy being a beginner but mistakes are good when we learn from them. I make them all the time.