water/cape buffulo with stone points........ has it been done??

[Justin Snyder]

It has been done with wood bows and metal points, so I am 100% convinced that the right stone will do it. Some of Cowboys raw Texas chert.

As for shot placement, I will defer to Paul Brunner, who has shot several water buff and several cape buff.

"Here is what I do on Buff... Go to the ELBOW. Go up from there a good, solid 8 to 10 inches. NOW GO FORWARD AT LEAST 4 INCHES!!!!!!! That is the V formed by the leg bone when it goes up and FORWARD from the elbow and then up and back to the scapula (shoulder blade). This puts your arrow in the CENTER of the lungs where all the arteries bunch up.

DO NOT GO TO THE ELBOW AND BACK...YOU WILL BE SCREWING UP ROYALLY!"

If that doesn't convince you look at this skeleton. The shape and thickness of the ribs make the shot placement obvious.

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[otis.drum]

justin, i agree with what your saying, and yes i've seen the skelletons and many pictures and autopsy photos. i've also seen the real thing in the wild, close up and personal. i agree that the spot your talking of is the place to aim (ribs are thinner and spaced further plus centre of vitals), but until someone can test successfully on downed beasts i don't think it should be done on live ones. there are still ribs in 'the spot', and the beast clint shot was a cow. not a bull and not a herd bull. big difference there too. would you mind if you only wounded one? say leaving it to suffer a long drawn out death. because to say you would do it anyday means your willing to do so, and you can't be 100% sure of the stones ability unless it's been tried and tested.

don't get me wrong. i hope you get a chance at it some day, and i hope you succeed. but i also hope you or someone has tested first. i'd love a chance at it myself if and when i'm confident it's doable.

[Justin Snyder]

and you can't be 100% sure of the stones ability unless it's been tried and tested.

I completely understand what you are saying, but it is hunting and there is no such thing as 100% sure. I hope you guys keep testing on buff, I don't have that luxury. I have shot through heavy bones to see what would happen. If I got the chance tomarrow the answer is YES, I have enough faith in the stone to take the shot. I would be really picky about the shot, but I would shoot.

[otis.drum]

justin that's a fair call.
there is never 100% in hunting, poor comment by me. and i know clints testing wasn't thorough enough to end the argument. he would need hundreds of heads in different shapes, weights, attachments etc to cover all bases. but they do need to be able to withstand a rib or scapular, and at the moment it stands at 100% failure.

i'd like to see some different varieties of stone tested. something less brittle perhaps. would this in turn sacrafice some degree of sharpness?

are there stronger ways of attaching the heads to the shaft? if the stone can handle the bone, it looks like it may be the next weak spot.

anyway, here's hoping it can be done.
 

[zeNBowyer]

Wow  that  skeleton  says  it  all, that  is suprising to  see that  much armour on  the  beast,
 I'm familiar  with anatomy  but I  never would  have  thought they  were that strongly  constructed,
hats  off to  the  bowyer that  takes that  beast  down:)

[mullet]

 I would think seriously about shooting a heavy, Tonkin cane arrow with a different stone point and at least wrap the sinew an 1 1/2" down the shaft. And make sure the transition from stone, to sinew and to shaft is smooth.  Let me talk to Claude VanOrder and see what kind of tough stone point or points he can come up with. I'll donate them to this experiment.

[D. Tiller]

Jeeesh! Look at them armor plated ribs! Use a .47-70 or bigger rifle!!!

[Kegan]

The lungs really range that far forward?

I think I need some heavy arrows

[Justin Snyder]

Here is a little closer look at the ribs.

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[hawkbow]

 Holy crap... now I really wanna hunt one of those armored warriors. Hawk

[zeNBowyer]

I'm  thinking needle  nosed  bodkins,  warbow,  this would  be  like  hunting  dinosaur:)

[ozy clint]

both of these arrows were 760-800grs. as otis said this was a cow who's fibrous skin was ONLY 1/2" thick and who's ribs are lighter! heavy bone is just one factor. remember it's no good just breaching the ribs. you must penetrate another foot after them to reach the the opposite side of the thorax. 

my goal was to use a totally primitive arrow, which i did. perhaps more chances of success would be gained if one hafted a stone point onto a steel field point with epoxy, then used it on a skinny carbon. then the only thing left to chance is whether the stone can handle it......reliably!

[stickbender]

     I would think that one of Claude Van Order's triangular points, on a tonkin shaft, would penetrate quite well, or even a narrow wedge shaped, and tapering thickness from the point to the back would also be the trick, made out of some cowboy's hard Texas rock.  As for reliability, of the attachment of the head, it is reliable.  When you can shoot through a big ol hog from a angle, and pass through the hip, and lodge in the opposite shoulder bone, I would think it would hold up quite well.  Just do as said and wrap it well, and smooth the transition to the head.  I have complete confidence in a stone head.  That boy "is" rather well armored.  But I don't see the ribs being any thicker than a cow, or an Elk, just a lot wider.  So I still think that a good stone point will penetrate, and slice and dice.  As for wounding, carry extra arrows of course, and a back up.  .45/70 .416 rigby, .458, .375 etc.  But I really don't see penetration being a real problem with a good stone head.  I am sure Claude can come up with a good design.  He is definitely a master knapper.
                                                                                  Wayne

[Justin Snyder]

Wayne, the ribs are much thicker. However, stone points have smashed through femurs and even skulls of pigs, bovine and elk, and kept going. Dr Ashby did studies on lethal shots for buffalo, (not bison). According to the tests, quartering toward you shot right behind the scapula was 100%. broadside was just over 70%.


Here is Dr Ashby's graph.

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[Justin Snyder]

You can see that quartering shots clearly let the points slip between the ribs. Soo much testing has been done with metal points, and it is a great place to start with stone.