traditional greek archery questions

[ballista]

i was thinking the greeks as well as the early romans disdained the use of a bow.  there is a show on the history channel called weapon masters.  the show is about resurrecting ancient weapons technology and putting a modern twist on it to see if they can achieve greater efficiency.  the show on a couple weeks ago was about the roman scorpion.  very informative!  they actually compared the strength of different tortion materials like hair, man-made and natural rope, and sinew.

this show is my favourite at the moment!!! they made a reconstruction of an egyption angular bow, it was great- i saw the scorpion episode too.

[ballista]

Yes, id love to see a few alternate trigger mechanizms, the few i know are hard to make without a drill press, or a plainer 
thanks for the replies too, i never realized how efficient a crossbow can be as a hunting tool.

[Dane]

I wish I had seen that episode. I should turn on the TV once in a while, eh?

One of the points of contention in the world of reconstructed ancient weapons is, do you try and build a machine that will give you a close idea of what the ancient engineers could do, or do you try and "improve" the performance, which isn't that valuable as a history lesson. Think about building a fiberglass English Warbow. What would that prove?

Can do, Jimmy. Just remember that the kinds of triggers I am talking about are for ballistas, scorpions, gastrophetes, etc., not for crossbows. Essentially, what we think triggers looked like are claws that hook over the bowstiring, and as you pull the trigger handle back, the claw lifts up, releasing the string and arrow.

I have included some sketchup drawings I made to help me design the parts. Be advised that I had to build a small forge to make all these metal parts, so they are not easy to do with hand tools alone. I am using bronze for my parts, the trigger parts as well as the associated Greek style linear ratchet (for the hand held scorpio), and a circular ratchet for the larger scorpion.

Also, a shot of the scorpion taken this past summer at a living history event. You can see the spring frame has not yet been plated, and is held on the stand by a wooden hand screw for the purposes of the display. The little hand held machine is on the ground, as you can see.

Dane

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[ballista]

  you got the fire starte dagain, man. i made a crossbow last year using the chinese trigger mechanish, but a mounted ballista..... heck yes! haha, put that in a deer stand! that picture of the sketch is super helpful, i had a hard time understanding the claw and trigger-thanks. so after you pull the pin from the claw, wouldn't the string stay on the claw? it seems like the string's tension would pull the claw, im not sure though.

[Dane]

Naw, the claw lifts up, and releases the bow string. See the fulcurm point bolt? And see the trigger handle? As you pull the handle back, it slips out from under the trigger claw, which is under tremendous pressure holding 700 to 1000+ pounds of force. The claw handle lifts up, and bam, it fires. I will be actually beveling the rear undersurface of my trigger claw when I cast it (not reflected in the drawings), to facilitate that.

The deer, should you shoot one from a tree stand, will likely explode at that range

Dane

[IONIAN]

  Ballista, the museum in Athens has a few artifacts, but no bows. There are plenty of arrow points though. Everything from flint to steel and bronze. I try to make it back home once a year, but with the way things are going around the globe right now I think I will stay here in the good ol USA.

                                                            Yeasou!

[Mechslasher]

dane, you make a good point, but i like to see if "primitive" techonology can be improved.  most of the time it cannot.  afterall, we still can't build a pyramid as good as they did 3000 years ago.

[Dane]

Thanks, Mechslasher. It depends on your intent. If you want to reconstuct a catapult that would have been used in the 1st century AD, and then modify it to "improve it", you will have defeated the purpose of learing how a 1st century catapult would have performed. It is kind of like Civil War reenactors wearing gore-tex and polyester uniforms, and firing rifled muskets with laser sights and glass bedded barrels.

Remember too there is no such thing as primitive technology when it was in use.

Dane

[ballista]

 The greeks, as Ive heard, stayed away from archery besides in the navy. The engeneers created a prototype, or something along those lines, of the roman scorpion. from that skeleton came rope tension, and the claw and trigger. My uncle lives there, I guess you cant hunt in greece with a rifle, so there big into shotguns- but they make bows from mastic trees and trees that grow fuit. I made a short bow out of an apple tree branch that dried for 3 seasons, ans short as it was, that thing packed a punch, something around 45 pounds, my scale is pretty iffy. More into 300 have you guys heard of the tree cannon? i saw it on mythbusters too, they actually work...pretty freaky-shoot granite balls the size of softballs, use loads of gun powder

[Dane]

Jimmy, no one is certain, of course, but it is thought that the catapult was invented on Syracuse, in the form of the gastrophetes. They evolved into bigger and bigger tension (with a bow) catapults, and then at one point, Greek engineers developed torsion springs to power the machines, as there was an upper limit to how large you could bulid a composite bow (and imagine a 15' composite bow exploding!).

I haven't forgotten the trigger info - just totally busy. Soon, I promise.

Dane

[ballista]

 haha yeah, i know what you mean by buisy, shools biting me in the ass, i cant go hunting until i bring my grades up, so my dad and i have to sneak out of th house to go hunting for a few hours, BS if you ask me.(run on sentance, sorry ) Have you seen the handheld versions of the rope tention crossbows? I saw one on youtube, im not sure how much of anadvantage they'd have over steel would be though.

[Dane]

Do you mean like the attached photo? This is one interpretation of a manuballista, or scorpio-minor, or small catapult, or whatever they called them (no one knows for certain).

This machine looks a bit like a crossbow, but is not, as it is torsion powered.

I based this on the 1st Century AD Xantan find, but only the frame was found, so the rest of the machine is conjecture, and I chose to make it a belly cocker. I am now fabricating the steel plating for the spring frame, and please note that the springs are just mocked up out of jute twine, not horsehair which will replace them. The spring diameter is about 1.25". It is made of white ash, as were some original Roman catapults.

Dane

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[Dane]

Oh, to address your question of advanteges over steel, 2000 years ago, it is doubtful that the Greeks or Romans would have made steel bows for thier arrow and stone firing machines. Marsden discusses that, and don't recall the details this early in the morning. There was a theoretical bronze leaf spring machine, but it was probably never built.

Dane

[ballista]

damn, thats pretty cool dane! you getting descent accuracy with that? thats awesome. youre in the line of crossbows, thats kinda how my passion for archery started up, as im sure yours was similar you ever hear of the chu ku no? (chinese repeating crossbow, korea used it alot too) they look kinda similar, if you havent heard of it, ill try to post a few links, there amazing. im definatley going to make one this coming winter, killing machines. maybe youve heard of them, or other people viewing the post- definetley worth looking up. oh dane, thats exactily what i was thinking of! -jimmy

[Dane]

Thanks, Jimmy. I dont yet know how it will perform, as it is not quite done yet, but I expect it to be very accurate, with a far flatter and faster trajectory than a hand bow. These were designed with only one goal, to kill the enemy.

As I thnk I mentioned, I have a pouring shank that is going to be delivered to me next week, finally, which you use to pour the molten bronze from the crucible into your molds. There is no way I wanted to skimp on foundry tools, though they are expensive, so jury rigging tools is out of the question. A slip up could literally mean death or ghastly injury. The particular bronze alloy I am using has a melting temperature of about 1600 degress f.

I will post photos and such when I get to that point, as well as of course performance data when the machine is done. Video too, if I can figure out how to do that.

Dane