horse culture native bows

[Papa Matt]

OK, brothers. I appreciate everybody weighing in on the "superior weapon D bow vs. Recurve" thread. Now I have two new questions. Any native brothers who know or have heard the stories please comment 

The buffalo hunters of the plains who were often on horseback, used generally short and powerful bows.

Question #1:  Were these same shortbows effective in the long range or would these brothers have carried a different, longer weapon for shooting an elk or white man at 50 yards?

Question #2:  Shorter the bow length NTN, the lower the brace height, correct? But did not the plains indians shoot short arrows with exceptionally long fletching? So, with a low brace height, and long fletch, were they dragging the feathers backwards against the naturally lay of the blades of the feather, across their hand/arrow shelf each time in order to shoot?

Fire away!

thanks,

~~Papa Matt

[JackCrafty]

Good questions...I'm very interested in the answers you'll get for this one.

As far as I know, Plains Indians used their "horse" bows for hunting and warfare.  From the few accounts I've read about Indians fighting Europeans, the arrows were shot at close range.  However, some plains tribes, like the Comanche, used bows that were in the 50"-56" length range.....which means that they might have been capable of long-range shooting.

The long feather issue is interesting.  IMO, yes, the feathers dragged against the hand and bow....but the noise didn't matter when hunting buffalo from horseback (or during combat).  Also, I think that the arrows were made to be expendable and were probably lost easily or damaged during the hunt....so messed up fletchings weren't a concern.

[Papa Matt]

Yeah, I've thought the same things. Just want to see if anyone has read or been told anything different.

[Pat B]

I've seen pics of NA fletching with a slot cut out of one feather to accommodate the side of the bow.
   Not until the Spaniards came to the new world did the NA have horses. Before that the dog was their beast of burden. I imagine they carried longer bows during pre-Columbian times and they may have carried over to the horse times also.
 In warfare, many warriors counted coup instead of actually killing and that was extremely close range.     Pat

[hawkbow]

I wonder if the longer feathers were simply a practical solution to shooting such short arrows from short powerful bows.The longer feathers would stabilize the shorter shafts allowing for greater accuracy and better penetration on buffalo and elk as well as on human enemys. Hawk a/ho

[uwe]

I didn`t read something on your quests, but my experience with longer feathers on low braced bows is, thats while I`m drawing the bow I always have in mind to draw the the arrow without touching the bow as long as the feathers are. This seems to compare with the words of Dr. Pope, who wrote in his Ishi book that Ishi was always took great care with the feathers before shooting.
@ Pat B: it seems to be correct that the Natives used longer bows in precolumbian times, when you see the pics in the 2. issue of Hamm/ Allely`s book of "Native American Bows, Arrows and Quivers". But at the same time even shorter bows exited. These are even printed in the book, too.

[D. Tiller]

I've seen a few of the plains arrows and they spent a good ammount of time making them. So, I don't think they were just one shot deals. Then again maybe they just sat arround making arrows all day?!?! Sounds like fun to me!

[Papa Matt]

I agree! I would love to go back in time and just sit around making equipment for a while. I once read where a sioux account of barter went like this: A good arrow took roughly a day to make (assuming the shafts were already cut and dry), a good horse was worth 10 good arrows, and a good woman was worth 10 good horses. Sounds like my kind of tradin', how about you? 

~~Papa Matt

[JackCrafty]

Hmmmmm...the math aint addin' up there.  Let's say 10 good horses sells for $60K.  If the woman has good job...she can make that every year.   Of course, you probably won't get yer hands on that money either way....

And I think the saying goes that a good bow is worth as much a good horse?

[stickbender]

     A lot of the earlier Archaeologist mistook the short bow for a child's bow.  It was not very powerful.  It was probably around the 35-40 range.  It didn't have to be very powerful.  Just powerful enough to sink into a buffaloe's lungs.  They would ride up close enough to shoot the buffaloe's lungs full of arrows, and then go shoot another one, and in short order, the buffaloe would colapse, and there is dinner, hides,glue, tools, etc.

                                                                   Stick Bender

[D. Tiller]

Bender, the Buffalo horn/sinew backed plains bows often pulled well over 60# often 70 to 80#'s in weight. They were not light in many respects. I have seen a couple and seen a fewe replicas and the ones that matched where higher weighted bows. The extras speed and penetration would tend to pay off on bringing in the Buff. Fewere shots and deepre penetration than the lighter wood sinew bows. That's why they were really prized posesion!

But Matt, how do you judge how much a woman is worth? Don't want to under bid or ya get in real trouble!!!