data on the Mary Rose bows/arrows

[bow-toxo]

I'm still having trouble envisioning a medievel archer of fairly small stature (compared to today's man) drawing a 36" arrow "full to the barb", as they say, fom a 100 lb+ bow.

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The mediaeval archers of fairly tall stature [compared to today's man] were the ones preferred as recruits or royal guardsmen and they would be the most likely ones to shoot clothyard arrows. The illustration for "The Double armed Man"  shows a draw to the chest, arrow at a 45 degree angle. If the archer is over 5'9", the arrow would be a clothyard, longer than the arrows in his quiver. There seem to be none on the Mary Rose although a fitting bow was there. Clearly, despite the mediaeval enthusiasm for clothyards, not everyone was shooting them. I won't try to guess how many were. One source said that at Agincourt, most shot a yard.

[stevesjem]

Here is a paper that gives some interesting thoughts on medieval measurements and distances.
http://www.englishwarbow.com/old_english_distances.html

Cheers

Steve

[majsnuff]

In  the book "Engllish Longbowmen 1330-1515" by Clive Bartlett. Page 22, paragraph 3, of topic "The War Bow",  describes the "Stave" as being "3 fingers thick and squared and 7' long. To be well got up, polished and without knots." The following paragraph states that; "Englishmen living in Ireland..... betwixt 60 and 16 in age, shall have an English warbow of his own length and one fistmele at the least between the nyckes"
A footnote on that page states that one bowyer, a "Richard Gallaway" could fashion a bow from the such a stave in 1-3/4 hours.
Obviously a much better bowyer than I. 

Hope this helps.

[D. Tiller]

They also where not worried about the "prety-ness" of the bow when they where wipping them out.

[bow-toxo]

I believe the reference to clothyard shooting Cornish archers B.T.  is paraphrasing is from the Cornish rebellion in 1497, which would make it roughly contemporary with the Mary Rose equipment.  However, regardless of the standardisation of the clothyard the arrows found onboard were largely for a 30” draw length.  I think it would be a mistake to assume medieval/Tudor archers were routinely shooting 36” arrows.  The only modern warbow archer I know able to shoot arrows this long is about 6’6” tall.  Not may of these to the pound, either now or then!             

I agree that clothyard arrows were not for everyone or for butt shooting at all. However it depends how you shoot it. Today's warbow archers seem to draw behind the ear. Mediaeval texts state that a long arrow shot in high arc is to be drawn to the breast, specifically the "right pap"[nipple]'. I am 5' 8" and  my arrow length by mediaeval recipe is 31 1/2 " which I cut to 30. Drawing a clothyard to my breast leaves it a few inches short of the arrowhead. It needs someone taller.While no clothyard arrows were found on the MR, there was one bow of the right length to shoot them.

[outcaste]

I believe the reference to clothyard shooting Cornish archers B.T.  is paraphrasing is from the Cornish rebellion in 1497, which would make it roughly contemporary with the Mary Rose equipment.  However, regardless of the standardisation of the clothyard the arrows found onboard were largely for a 30” draw length.  I think it would be a mistake to assume medieval/Tudor archers were routinely shooting 36” arrows.  The only modern warbow archer I know able to shoot arrows this long is about 6’6” tall.  Not may of these to the pound, either now or then!             

I agree that clothyard arrows were not for everyone or for butt shooting at all. However it depends how you shoot it. Today's warbow archers seem to draw behind the ear. Mediaeval texts state that a long arrow shot in high arc is to be drawn to the breast, specifically the "right pap"[nipple]'. I am 5' 8" and  my arrow length by mediaeval recipe is 31 1/2 " which I cut to 30. Drawing a clothyard to my breast leaves it a few inches short of the arrowhead. It needs someone taller.While no clothyard arrows were found on the MR, there was one bow of the right length to shoot them.

Hi,

I think there are some biomechanical issues that should be looked at when drawing to the chest. You are certainly at a mechanical disadvantage and I would therefore suggest that though not impossible, a lighter bow would have to be employed. When shooting heavy bows the body suffers from quite large compressive forces, reducing draw length. Also it is my understanding that the measurement of a Yard was not a standard lenth until after the MR. Could this suggest that a yard arrow might well be anywhere between 30-36 ins?

Just a thought,

Alistair

[bow-toxo]

In  the book "Engllish Longbowmen 1330-1515" by Clive Bartlett. Page 22, paragraph 3, of topic "The War Bow",  describes the "Stave" as being "3 fingers thick and squared and 7' long. To be well got up, polished and without knots." The following paragraph states that; "Englishmen living in Ireland..... betwixt 60 and 16 in age, shall have an English warbow of his own length and one fistmele at the least between the nyckes"
A footnote on that page states that one bowyer, a "Richard Gallaway" could fashion a bow from the such a stave in 1-3/4 hours.
Obviously a much better bowyer than I. 

Hope this helps.

Staves of that description were ordered. By mediaeval standards they were of a length to make bows long enough to shoot clothyard arrows. The second quote is from a directive of Fdward IV and the bow length is the same as when measured by another recipe. That is the length for a longbow to shoot the normal arrows just long enough to be drawn to the ear. That is the way I make my longbows. you are getting the real info.

[adb]

Hi,
Hugh Soar's book... "Secrets of the Warbow" has some detailed measurements of a couple of mary rose warbows... length, circumfurances, width, depth, etc.

[stevesjem]

A Clotrhyard measurement comes from the measuring stick used to measure cloth, his was supposed to be 3 feet + 1Inch or (Ynce), however don't be led to believe that 3 feet was 36" because back then the measurement for feet or "Natural feet" as it was knows was actually only 9.9" in modern Inches, so a Clothyard would be:
3 x 9.9" + 1" = 30.7", funnily enough 30.5" is the most common length of arrow found on the MR, hense this is the reason that the EWBS chose this length of arrow as the minimum spec arrow for our "Livery Arrow" .

The arrow measurements I quote are not from a book, these come from actual measurements made by me at the MR.

Hope this helps.

Steve

[stevesjem]

While no clothyard arrows were found on the MR, there was one bow of the right length to shoot them.

Could you please explain this statement, I have seen and handled pretty much all of the bows and would be very interested to know where you got that bit of info from.
Cheers

Steve

[adb]

Much debate surrounds the ''clothyard" shaft. Funny, there aren't many examples of them from Medieval times. Having examined the Mary Rose shafts myself in July of '07, none were anywhere near 36"... most being 30-31".
I don't believe we are that much different in stature than our medieval ancestors. Most of us can draw an arrow back to our ear with replica warbows, and that distance is about 30-32". I can't imagine drawing to 36", for anyone, being at all practical... and perhaps physically impossible. Funny, the arrows from the MR are not 36". If spoken of in those terms, it seems logical to assume that a clothyard is not 36in, but something less. I think that just because there was one bow long enough to shoot one, does not mean that they existed. That would be like saying that just because there were wheels during medieval times, that their vehicles should have been able to go 100 mph.
Practical warfare thrives by standardization. Making all the arrows, bullets, rifles, bows, kit, etc. the same for everyone makes practical sense. Therefore, all arrows can be shot by all bowmen.
Clothyard shafts, 200 pound bows, penetrating plate steel at 250 yards... all results of exaggeration and wishful thinking... perpetuated by legend, to become modern fact.

[stevesjem]

Much debate surrounds the ''clothyard" shaft. Funny, there aren't many examples of them from Medieval times. Having examined the Mary Rose shafts myself in July of '07, none were anywhere near 36"... most being 30-31".
I don't believe we are that much different in stature than our medieval ancestors. Most of us can draw an arrow back to our ear with replica warbows, and that distance is about 30-32". I can't imagine drawing to 36", for anyone, being at all practical... and perhaps physically impossible. Funny, the arrows from the MR are not 36". If spoken of in those terms, it seems logical to assume that a clothyard is not 36in, but something less. I think that just because there was one bow long enough to shoot one, does not mean that they existed. That would be like saying that just because there were wheels during medieval times, that their vehicles should have been able to go 100 mph.
Practical warfare thrives by standardization. Making all the arrows, bullets, rifles, bows, kit, etc. the same for everyone makes practical sense. Therefore, all arrows can be shot by all bowmen.
Clothyard shafts, 200 pound bows, penetrating plate steel at 250 yards... all results of exaggeration and wishful thinking... perpetuated by legend, to become modern fact.

I agree to a certain degree with what you are saying, however Clothyard shafts using the medieval size of the foot means that 95% of the MR arrows fall into that size range,
200lb bows, well maybe not 200, but certainly 180-190lb at 30", which would take them over 200@32", and penetrating plate steel at 250 yds, well if you can hit the target then this is not just possible but very probable,
See this link (I hope this is allowed) http://englishwarbow.com/forum/index.php?topic=1289.15
So no exaggeration or wishful thinking...but more probably fact.

Steve

[adb]

Steve,
I agree... a clothyard was not likely 36", especially considering that if MR arrows were referred to as a clothyard (being that most are 30-31").

As far as penetrating plate at 250 yards... I thought (and from what I've read or seen), that it was only likely to penetrate at something more like 50 yards. I assume you've seen the TV documentary on "Weapons that made Britain: The Longbow"? They did some actual testing, and found it not likely to penetrate, except at very close range. And not just penetrate, but penetrate to be effectively deadly. What are your thoughts on this? Seems to me, also, that Mark Stretton did some testing, and was only able to penetrate plate at fairly close range? Wasn't that in Hugh's book "Secrets of the Warbow?"

Then and now, a 200# warbow was not practical. Appropriate material, an archer who could shoot it properly, and considering a point of diminishing returns, all lead me to believe (and having examined the MR bows) that most warbows were not as heavy as we presently think. Certainly, some heavy bows (150#+) did exist, but more practically, they were somewhat less #.

[alanesq]

just throw my 2p worth in ;-)

When you shoot an arrow 250 yards dont forget that it is falling from a great height so actually by the time it reaches the ground it is travelling at a very high speed (watching my arrows come down they really are moving very fast by the time they hit the ground - I must figure out some way to measure the speed?)
so its not a matter of the further you shoot the slower the arrow will be travelling

I have only been doing archery for approx. 2.5 years, I am over 40 years old but I can now shoot a 140lb bow
so its not difficult to imagine that specially selected military archers at the prime of their life who were brought up with archery from a young age would be shooting much heavier bows than I can manage

[outcaste]

Hi,

I would also add that just a few years ago arguably there were only  one or two archers who were shooting the heavier warbows (150+). Recently we are getting 130lb bows being shot reguarly. What we are seeing is the result of archers applying themselves within their training. I would agree with Alan 2/3 years of training can easily see an archer drawing 140lbs if they train correctly and have favourable genetics. If only I had started in my twenties rather than my thirties!

Alistair