Author Topic: The best shape for a reflexed bow?  (Read 1285 times)

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Offline willie

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Re: The best shape for a reflexed bow?
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2025, 02:58:05 am »
I also like the curvature graph—you can see exactly where the bow is actually bending.

Yes quite helpful with reflex/deflex and other profiles that are hard to judge when looking at the bow on a tiller tree.

Offline simk

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Re: The best shape for a reflexed bow?
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2025, 08:03:44 am »
Thanks Tuomo!
I'd say the results are intersting to get a general idea about these designs. The setback handle being worst and the d/r best will will most likely match with reality.
However: Having the front profiles and tapers not optimized will distort the outcome relevant. Especially having the same front profiles on all bows neglects specific advantages/disadvantages of these designs. The recurves need a lot more mass on the outers to stabilize than a self-stabilizing longbow. In my experience the theoretical advantages of recurves and other complex designs over longbows mostly get consumed with the additional mass required. Therefore I would cast into doubt  the "placements" 3-5 and also I think the gap between 1 and 6 is not that big.
 
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Offline bjrogg

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Re: The best shape for a reflexed bow?
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2025, 11:34:10 am »
Very intresting Tuomo.

I think I shoot that bow Bob showed and it was a very nice shooting bow.

What would work best scaled down to a 24” draw.

I would be interested in the best performing length and reflex shape for a 24” @ 50 lb natural material Selfbow.

I’ve only done one deflex handle with static recurves . It was more draw length than I could comfortably draw at 28” .

Would the static tips in my bow add to much mass ?

It’s kinda hard to wrap my head around all the mechanics of a bow. Something so simple. Yet so complex.

Thanks for sharing

Bjrogg
I’d like to know the best front profile for it too.
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Offline RyanY

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Re: The best shape for a reflexed bow?
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2025, 11:35:01 am »
If we isolate the variables and assume that these bows are all evenly strained and 100% efficient then wouldn’t the difference come down to energy storage alone? I’m not sure what would make the difference just based on the unbraced profile. It’s hard to separate the real world effects that were used to making assumptions about such as strain, limb mass, hysteresis, limb vibration, etc.

Offline Tuomo

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Re: The best shape for a reflexed bow?
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2025, 12:06:09 pm »
Simk: How do you optimize the front profile, and especially the tapers? The front profile is more of a practical problem, because in the model you can make it as narrow as you want, but in real life stability becomes a real concern. That’s the main reason I wanted to use the same front profile for every bow model.
As for the taper rate, I optimized it with strain distribution in mind. What would be a better approach? The 0.008 taper I used seemed to work well for every model.

Ryan: Yes, energy storage is mainly determined by the unbraced profile. That’s exactly what I wanted to examine, and of course the results of that difference also. All the “bows” had the same net reflex, yet they still behaved very differently.

Offline Selfbowman

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Re: The best shape for a reflexed bow?
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2025, 12:24:01 pm »
The design I’ve been using for years is closest to the third design. The speeds are close to what I get most of the time. I have had upward to 186 ft per second. Not often though. Interesting topic thanks for sharing. Notice the farther the tips get in front of the back of the bow the more speed. That’s with the deflex in the handle to help the stress on the inner limb.
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Offline willie

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Re: The best shape for a reflexed bow?
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2025, 02:02:19 pm »
As for the taper rate, I optimized it with strain distribution in mind. What would be a better approach?

Model exceptional performing bows in virtualbow to find what the best strain distribution looks like.
Use this distribution model to test different degrees of deflex/reflex, different tapers and lengths etc.

Offline Tuomo

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Re: The best shape for a reflexed bow?
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2025, 04:05:13 pm »
Nice idea, Willie, and definitely worth trying. But I see many problems as well. How can I be sure that strain distribution is the main feature of an exceptional bow? Why not mass or curvature distribution, or the side profile combined with some other parameter?

I don’t have an exceptional bow—just some good ones. Their common features are that they have minimal set and they are deflex-reflexed. Set is a material-related parameter, and when making wooden bows, minimizing set is only possible when strain is distributed as evenly as possible. I’m going to make some bamboo-horn bows in the near future, so with horn the set parameter is almost eliminated. Simk has made a lot of very fast horn-belly bows and has taken very good and reliable measurements of their performance (see Traditionell Bogenschiessen 117), so there is potential. But again, this is how we implement theory in a real-life bow.

So, I’m going to make deflex-reflex (or even deflex-reflex-recurve) bows with evenly distributed strain and test them. A long to-do list…

Offline simk

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Re: The best shape for a reflexed bow?
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2025, 05:33:45 pm »
yes, Tuomo, I had around 50 or so different bows from different bowmakers on the shooting machine....maybe post that in a seperate thread, its sure interesting.

How do you optimize the front profile
The longbow is self stabilizing when strung - you can make it as narrow as you like without getting into stability issiues. A recurve needs a certain width at its base. At the same spot the longbow can be made much narrower resulting in a different top profile and mass difference. Your experiment does not take in acount relevant specific characeristics of the design. Namely the lighter limbs of a longbow, and the extra mass of recurves. If we compare the experiment with reality we also must say, that you put recurves mainly on shorter bows - 68" is a bit long to make a recurve.

But this is all about fps. If we only talk about stored energy and sideprofile and leave the fps aside, this a very good experiment.

Shorter bows automatically store more energy - this we know - and also that reflex is another key factor. Now we have same length and same reflex. So the small differences we see come from the sideprofile (and tiller).

Maybe Tuomo could upload the force-draw-curves? Visualizing the stored energy? Maybe we see a nice hump in the curve of the d/r?

And Tuomo: Do these bows all have same length of string? Any Differences?

Gettin' curious again  ;D

« Last Edit: December 10, 2025, 05:38:08 pm by simk »
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Offline sleek

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Re: The best shape for a reflexed bow?
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2025, 06:16:26 pm »
yes, Tuomo, I had around 50 or so different bows from different bowmakers on the shooting machine....maybe post that in a seperate thread, its sure interesting.

How do you optimize the front profile
The longbow is self stabilizing when strung - you can make it as narrow as you like without getting into stability issiues. A recurve needs a certain width at its base. At the same spot the longbow can be made much narrower resulting in a different top profile and mass difference. Your experiment does not take in acount relevant specific characeristics of the design. Namely the lighter limbs of a longbow, and the extra mass of recurves. If we compare the experiment with reality we also must say, that you put recurves mainly on shorter bows - 68" is a bit long to make a recurve.

But this is all about fps. If we only talk about stored energy and sideprofile and leave the fps aside, this a very good experiment.

Shorter bows automatically store more energy - this we know - and also that reflex is another key factor. Now we have same length and same reflex. So the small differences we see come from the sideprofile (and tiller).

Maybe Tuomo could upload the force-draw-curves? Visualizing the stored energy? Maybe we see a nice hump in the curve of the d/r?

And Tuomo: Do these bows all have same length of string? Any Differences?

Gettin' curious again  ;D

Do you still have the shooting machine set up? Im very interested in your experiments, please do post it, here or on another thread.
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Offline Badger

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Re: The best shape for a reflexed bow?
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2025, 07:14:54 pm »
   Are you saying shorter bows store more energy?  I believe this to be false I have never seen anything to support this.

Shorter bows automatically store more energy - this we know - and also that reflex is another key factor. Now we have same length and same reflex. So the small differences we see come from the sideprofile (and tiller)

 I would agree that short bows tend to be more efficient. Many here will agree that right about 67" is an optimum length. .

Offline simk

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Re: The best shape for a reflexed bow?
« Reply #41 on: Today at 04:31:10 am »
you are right Badger - I messed that up - the short bow does store less energy but is more efficient.
But why does it store less energy? String angle?
And why is it more efficient? Limb mass, limbtravel and inertia?
And why does the d/r in Tuomos experiment store more energy than the straight limbed bow? string angle?
Now: In practice we often see that short bows are faster — especially with light arrows — than the longer ones: is that  maybe because limb mass and limb inertia (efficiency) matters more than stored energy?
If that is the case,  when trying to make a fast bow, one should maybe focus more on efficiency than energy storage? How to optimize these contradictory facors?
Given that more stored energy usually means heavier and slower limbs, how do we find the sweet spot where arrow speed is maximized?
It must be where increasing stored energy starts to cost you too much efficiency by increasing  limb mass and inertia.
Now where is that?
« Last Edit: Today at 05:13:08 am by simk »
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Offline willie

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Re: The best shape for a reflexed bow?
« Reply #42 on: Today at 05:24:53 am »
Nice idea, Willie, and definitely worth trying. But I see many problems as well. How can I be sure that strain distribution is the main feature of an exceptional bow? Why not mass or curvature distribution, or the side profile combined with some other parameter?


you cant input a stress curve directly into Virtualbow as you can the profiles, but knowing what a good stress curve looks like can help you make the adjusments for your next iteration

when you look at arrow speed, also look at the stress curve for shape as well checking for max stress levels. Curve shape patterns will emerge with the faster arrow speeds. I never look at mass, if its too high, arrow speeds will suffer

Offline Tuomo

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Re: The best shape for a reflexed bow?
« Reply #43 on: Today at 07:19:31 am »
Simk has very good questions! I’ve been thinking about the same things, but I don’t have definitive answers either. Hopefully we can find some together. But here are my thoughts.

I don’t like string angle as a parameter, because it doesn’t have a precise definition. To define an angle, you need two intersecting lines. One of them is obviously the string, but what exactly is the other one? For example, in model 4, what is its string angle? Or model 5? Or with a recurve bow that has a circular arc at the tip – where do you draw the tangent to define the string angle? Sometimes string angle correlates with energy storage – smaller string angle → more energy storage – but I wouldn’t say they are always explicitly connected. Or at least, you shouldn’t focus too much on string angle, because it isn’t the parameter you should be looking at.

Why do shorter bows store less energy? First we should specify what we are comparing. By “shorter bow” I mean a bow that is short relative to the draw length. For a fixed draw length, a shorter bow must be drawn proportionally farther, and that leads to less stored energy.

You should think of a bow as a lever (or two-lever) system. It has a fulcrum and two lever arms. When drawing the bow, the effective lever arm length is decreasing. If we exaggerate a bit, think about a braced bow where the draw force direction is almost orthogonal to the limbs (or to the string, which transfers the force to the limbs), and then compare that to the extreme situation where the limbs are bent so much they are nearly parallel to the draw direction. At brace height, the limbs act like long lever arms; at full draw, they act like very short ones, approaching zero. Thus a bow acts like a variable-ratio lever, because its effective lever arm length changes throughout the draw.

Now remember that lever arm length affects the force needed: a long lever arm gives more mechanical advantage and therefore requires less force. Because of this, a longer-limb bow has more mechanical advantage near full draw than a short-limb bow. With a fixed draw length, when a short bow is drawn to full draw, its lever arms are shorter than those of the longer bow, which means it reaches higher draw force sooner. On the draw-force curve you will see this as the curve rising sharply – this is stacking – and stacking results in less stored energy overall.

But the most important point is that a short-limb bow’s limbs simply cannot bend much more near full draw. The lever system of the bow determines how the limbs bend and thus how they store energy. Therefore, short limbs cannot store additional elastic potential energy at the end of the draw.

The string applies the draw force to the limb tips, bending the limbs. This bending is what stores the energy. The limbs store elastic potential energy just like a stretched rubber band. The more you bend the limbs, the more energy is stored. The work done in drawing the bow is “force × distance”, and that is equal to the bow’s potential energy at full draw.

In physics, when you do work—like lifting a weight—the weight gains potential energy exactly equal to the work done. In the same way, the bow’s potential energy at full draw is exactly the work you have done in drawing it. You can calculate that potential energy by integrating the draw-force curve, i.e., by calculating the area under the curve.

Thus, you do work on the bow by drawing the string, which acts on the limbs, which act like levers and bend the limbs, which stores energy. The lever-arm behaviour determines how the draw force is applied to the bending of the limbs, which ultimately store the energy like springs.

In short, a bow is a complex system of energy-storing springs that also act as variable-ratio mechanical levers.

Here is small comparison made with VirtualBow-program, of short and long bow. Straight, normal front profile, taper rate 0.004 (evenly distributed stess).
« Last Edit: Today at 09:47:47 am by Tuomo »

Offline Badger

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Re: The best shape for a reflexed bow?
« Reply #44 on: Today at 09:23:11 am »
    Are these real bow tests or computer-generated? I have never seen a 60" bow store that much energy unless it was a recurve with considerable reflex. Vibration or distortion of the limbs near the end of the power stroke is the area of the biggest losses. Reducing the amount of bending  limb will also increase efficiency. You will see results here pretty quickly by just stiffening up the outer limb.