When to chase a ring

[Muskyman]

Thanks bassman. Do I need to flatten the back and or the small knots out before I back it. The back of this stave has some contour to it. Would rawhide work okay for a backing for this bow?

[bassman211]

Rough the back with a fine toothed hack saw blade,and sinew back it. Magical stuff.

[Muskyman]

What’s the best tutorial anyone knows of for backing a bow with sinew? I’ve watched a few already and some use hide glue some say tbIII . Also seeing other glue’s used. Also do I need to put something over the sinew to protect it from the weather? 1 layer 2 layers 3?  Going to try and chase the ring on this piece one more time I think but, might back it even if I get it done. I’m running out of thickness on the thin end of my stave so this is probably my last try on this stave.

Thanks everyone
Mike

[superdav95]

Mike. As for sinew glue up use hide glue.  Do like bassman said and fine tooth groove up the back first with at least 20 tpi is what I use. You can also just rough up the back and be fine too but I found personally the grooving works well.  When you get your sinew combed cleaned and separated into fine fibers remove anything that isn’t fine fibers from you sinew like the casing that comes on leg tendons. It’s really important to get this as finely separated and clean as you can before glueing it down.  Weight it all out dry.  Figure out how much you want to lay on each limb and separate it all into smaller bundles.  I usually do 2-3 courses of sinew anywhere from 25-30grams each course. I wash my sinew after it’s all separated into respective bundle with dawn dish soap to remove oils.  You will want to size the back really well before glueing any sinew down.  To do this use very thin hide glue roughly 5-10%.  Give it a good 7-8 coats.  This may seem like it’s overkill but you’ll thank yourself later.  This thinned glue will get down into the pours and groove of the wood back of your bow.  Let it dry.  When you have a shine on the back after several coats of thinned glue and it’s no longer dull in appearance you’ve sized it well enough.  When laying down your sinew I like to comb it out wet after soaking it well washing it well to get all the fibers running same direction then I immerse this bundle in 30% glue.  Then I squeeze out the excess with my fingers and lay the bundle across the middle of the handle.  I like to slightly heat up my sized back with radiant heat source to get the glue ready to accept the bundle.  I’ve had good luck with this.  Take each smaller bundle that’s been weighted and do the same for each course.  I would then lay overlapping the first bundle on the handle onto each side of bows limbs. Depending on the length you may need to adjust your plan and layout for sinew.  Depending on the amount of sinew you’ve laid at this point you may want to let it dry.  Some guys like to wrap the sinew after it sets up with tensor bandage to press onto the back.  I’ve done it a number of ways and for your purposes for it may be fine to just back string it a bit to induce to reflex and let it air dry.  To smooth out the sinew after laying it you can use your fingers with some water or the back of a comb.  It’s a fine line to not starve the sinew of glue and adding too much glue to weight it down and loose cast.    After I lay sinew down I let each course dry a good couple or three weeks or more depending on humidity and weather.  Then keep working your way to next course moving up the limb.  Some guys lay it all at once and some don’t.  I have had better luck in 2-3 courses letting it dry between each.  There’s a lot to consider I guess and tons of research that can be done before you do it but the best thing is to just get after it and try it.  No matter which way you end up doing this don’t skip the sizing step.  Do the sizing within a day of putting grooves on the back.  You want it nice a clean with open pours in wood for glue to get deep.  Best of luck and keep us posted. 

Cheers. 

[BowEd]

Sound advice Dave.That's pretty much my process too.Glad you went through the full typing of the process....ha ha.Paying attention to the details pays off in more ways than one.

[Muskyman]

Okay I’m going to get my ring chased back to the handle area. So I’ll probably end up having two different rings that end in the handle section pretty much right in the center of the bow.. I’ll probably bring it inside for a couple weeks to let the stave dry out more. I’m hoping to have it down to floor tiller at this point. I’ll probably glue a couple pieces of wood onto the handle section to make a handle and fades on it later.  I saw some deer back sinew on 3rivers archery pre-proceeded so I might get some of that and some hide glue as well. Probably will make a flat bow 1 1/2 inch limbs at the fades to half way up the limb and taper down to 1/2 inch at the noch. About 72 inches total length. Simple design and one I’ve made on the few hickory bows I’ve done, I’m guessing I should clean the back of the bow before putting the sizing on it, I think I saw someone using denatured alcohol for that. I’ll look into that before I do it. Then do the sizing and let it dry.. then do the first sinew course. Once I get to the point where I’m going to put sinew on it I’ll revisit this topic on here and hopefully have found some good info on the process as well as the info I’ve gotten from you guys. I might try and see if I can find some of the books I’ve seen talked about on here about bow building and see what info I can find in those as well. Going to try and take some time and get more info before jumping into doing this so I end up having a better chance for success. I have seen where people have had their sinew lift on them, can that be salvaged or is it trash at that point? 
Thanks Dave, and everyone else. I’m hoping to work on my hickory stave through the winter and jump back and forth between the two bows so I don’t destroy my efforts on one or both

Mike

[Muskyman]

Is th white wood on here still sapwood?

[Muskyman]

Another pic of me chasing the ring

[Kidder]

Muskyman that does appear to be sapwood. Often you’ll find a transition ring that is sapwood in places. I can tell you’re wanting to try rawhide and that should work perfectly fine. I would still try to get a perfect ring before rawhide application. If it were me, even if I had a perfect ring I would still soft back that bow - the rings are so fine that there are going to be places where they are paper thin once cleaned up. Having a soft backing is just a little insurance. As for sinew backing, the best glue you can find is Knox gelatin. Pretty hard to beat a sinew backed Osage, but that really is a different bow altogether.

[superdav95]

Mike.  As for sinew lifting off… I would size really well and this should solve most of the issues with lifting off.  As added measure against lifting you can wrap with bandage so it breath and stay firm on the back.  I use horse leg wrap instead of tensor bandage actually for my last sinewed bow and it worked better that I can tell.  Less lines in the sinew from the wrap.  I’ve tried the inner tube wrap also on a bamboo bow too that worked well.  I got this technique from pat B I believe if memory serves.  In this technique you lay all your sinew and let it set up but not dry.  Then wrap with strips of t shirt cloth or old bed sheet then apply little heat from setting in sun or just low setting on heat gun.  This will force out excess glue to the surface while keeping sinew down.  The next day I wrap it tighter with the 1” wide strips of inner tube leaving a 1/16” gap in the wrap.  Then heat up again.  I’ve had to really experiment with this to get it right.  It worked out in the end on a heavily c shaped bamboo bow I did earlier this year.  It worked good to keep the sinew down on a heavily reflexed shape.  FYI.  There is a tutorial on this method if you search the pa forum under pat B if I’ve got that right from memory.  Like kidder said you can use Knox gelatine however I personally like the hide glue better for sinew.   I’ve used sturgeon fish bladder glue one one bow with good results too.  Little harder to come bow that glue but it has the benefit of added water proofing and longer set times which is nice.   

[Muskyman]

Kidder, I was mainly thinking rawhide because it’s cheaper than sinew. Also I figured it would be easier for me to do. I’m thinking I’ll do the sinew after reading that rawhide kinda slows the limbs on a bow, or can. I read that somewhere anyway. Also have read that sinew will actually make them a little springier. I might go with rawhide just because it will be my first Osage bow. Well shoot, I’m sitting here talking myself out of the sinew sorta, kinda. Maybe I’ll get some sinew and some rawhide and decide later. I’ll figure it out sooner or later.
Lots to consider Dave, that’s for sure. Just going to take some time and figure it out. Going to try and get some stuff together material wise then figure out how I want to go moving forward.

[superdav95]

Ya for sure.  best of luck.  Also you can do both sinew and rawhide.  I use a very thin rawhide to cover and protect my sinew sometimes.  It’s an option. 

[Muskyman]

Where is a good source for rawhide and or sinew? I’ve seen it on a few sites. Sinew being processed and unprocessed. I would probably go with the processed stuff just for simplicity. Also have seen deer and regular rawhide for sale. Is one better than the other?
Also do you need to size the back and run the fine tooth grove down the back for rawhide like you do on sinew

[bassman211]

 I use rough cut 80 grit sand paper  to rough the back of the bow for raw hide, and many on here  use it for both raw hide ,and sinew, but for sinew I prefer a fine toothed hack saw blade. Look on Ebay for ready to use raw hide ,or sinew, but neither are cheap ,but worth the cost in my opinion.

[PaSteve]

The sinew process Dave is referring to is from Pat M, not Pat B....just in case you do a search. Goat rawhide is also a great option if you go the rawhide route. It's very thin and a better option than deer rawhide which seems to be much thicker unless it comes from a young doe. Just another option.