How heavy is too heavy?

[WhistlingBadger]

Hi, all.  Got my hickory arrows fletched and all, and they come in around 750g.  This is for a bow that draws about 45# at my normal draw length.  They penetrate like crazy, of course, and they're right on the button out to about 15 yards.  Beyond about 20 yards, I'm not crazy about the way they fly.  Nothing I can exactly put my finger on yet; they just don't "feel" quite right.  (some of this might be because I did the fletching wrong on several of them, a mistake I plan to remedy this evening)

Is that typical?  I know anything over about 10g per pound of draw is considered heavy, but I'm wondering where the tipping point is between accuracy/performance and penetration.  thoughts?

[Pat B]

Most deer are killed within 15 yards with trad and primitive bows. If you are happy with the way they shoot out to 15 yards then go for it. Heavy arrows shot from a relatively light bow loose their energy pretty quickly in their flight.

[StickMark]

W.Badger,
What kind of hunt and terrain are you considering?

I think the specific location of the hunt determines the "heavy vs moderate vs light arrow argument."

Ask this question on a variety of forums, and you'll find various approaches.
A heavier arrow can miss the vitals if you misjudge range. A 10 gpp arrow might kill on that same shot. But, a gap shooter can have a short distance point-on with 15, 16.5 gpp arrow, and not miss.

(I am playing around with 10 gpp vs 11 gpp right now, but I anticipate longer shots than 15 yards.  Arizona terrain, jumpy deer...)

[Don W]

I've had the same issue with hickory. The stuff is heavy. I like an arrow around 650gr. I had made several arrows at that weight and then read some stuff from the Ashby foundation and it got stuck in my head.

I like the hickory because they're almost indestructible but I can't shot them beyond 20 yards either.

[Pat B]

The Ashby Report is an excellent study on penetration on large, heavy boned African animals. There is lots of useful information about penetration, broadhead types and styles and arrow weight but it is specifically about the big game of Africa and around the world. Here in the US most folks hunt deer and elk and real heavy shafting is not that important. Many, many deer and elk have been killed here in the US using POC, Sitka spruce and Douglas fir and other local woods arrows weighing around 500 grains. Unless you plan to go to Africa, Australia for heavy animals or perhaps if you are hunting moose or grizzlies standard arrow shafting is sufficient. 

[WhistlingBadger]

OK, thanks for the insight, guys.  My situation is a little more like Stickmark.  I hunt fairly open country, and most shots are 20 yards plus.  I usually try to be good out to about 25 or so; that probably doubles the opportunities over 15 yards.

I refletched a few of the heavies, and I'm going to go out and shoot them tomorrow.  If I can get the hang of them, great.  If not, I'll probably make up some lighter ones (I have a nice set of doug fir shafts) and shelve the heavies until I carve myself a stronger bow.

[StickMark]

Let us know how the testing goes, because it has been a while since we have had a good arrow weight discussion. Tradgang is talking about deer "jumping the string", and total arrow weight and such, and Stickbow is going on about arrow requirements for elk, so PA can keep it going. What makes our discussion different might be our arrow speeds? Lots of archers with more harvest experience on here than me.

Seems a few extra feet per second or a couple dozen grains of arrow weight can change the momentum and KE of the situation, that is known.

If I hunted Howell Island, Missouri exclusively, I might go heavier, in that primal bottomland forest. I had a deer at 7 or so  feet and could not get a shot!

I thought about the hickory shafts from Pinehollow Longbows, and have hunted with ash shafts and a low 40's bow. Last deer harvest, I saw some issues with a heavy mule fat arrow, >525 grains and a primitive bow that was not "efficient," (slow speed allowed some deer movement, but the 'spear' did its job). However, the heavier shafts are quiet, and structurally sound, like the good Doc Ashby likes.

The debate continues...

[Morgan]

Hi, all.  Got my hickory arrows fletched and all, and they come in around 750g.  This is for a bow that draws about 45# at my normal draw length.  They penetrate like crazy, of course, and they're right on the button out to about 15 yards.  Beyond about 20 yards, I'm not crazy about the way they fly.  Nothing I can exactly put my finger on yet; they just don't "feel" quite right.  (some of this might be because I did the fletching wrong on several of them, a mistake I plan to remedy this evening)

Is that typical?  I know anything over about 10g per pound of draw is considered heavy, but I'm wondering where the tipping point is between accuracy/performance and penetration.  thoughts?

What is the diameter of those shafts? Would it be possible to taper the shaft and adjust point weight for spine accordingly?

[Tommy D]

The Ashby Report is an excellent study on penetration on large, heavy boned African animals. There is lots of useful information about penetration, broadhead types and styles and arrow weight but it is specifically about the big game of Africa and around the world. Here in the US most folks hunt deer and elk and real heavy shafting is not that important. Many, many deer and elk have been killed here in the US using POC, Sitka spruce and Douglas fir and other local woods arrows weighing around 500 grains. Unless you plan to go to Africa, Australia for heavy animals or perhaps if you are hunting moose or grizzlies standard arrow shafting is sufficient.

I can’t remember which paper this was from, but I took a screenshot of the graphs because I thought they were very insightful. It was an Ashby report where he essentially said almost all wounding of  game (including North American) was a result of lack of penetration, and that whilst shot placement is important one cannot always predict how an animal reacts the moment after an arrow is released  and therefore where even the perfect shot actually ends up hitting - so a better penetrating arrow is always a safer bet.

I find it interesting how much wounding rates in North America went up over the years - he correlated a lot of this to the move to multiblade heads, mechanicals etc ... all resulting in poorer penetration...

[Pappy]

My optimal weight for my 45/50 self bows is between 525/550 , good to 20/25 yards with out giving up so much on range, anything over 15/18 yards with heavy shafts it drops like a rock, I get good  penetration with the 525/550 shafts on white tail . Pappy

[Don W]

My optimal weight for my 45/50 self bows is between 525/550 , good to 20/25 yards with out giving up so much on range, anything over 15/18 yards with heavy shafts it drops like a rock, I get good  penetration with the 525/550 shafts on white tail . Pappy

What weight tip do you use? I'm still trying to find the right arrow for my 50# self bows. I seem to get similar results with close to 650gr with 190 gr. Tips. At 30 yards I struggle, at 35 forget it, but shorter than that I do ok.

[Pappy]

160 grain tips and broad heads, tune all my arrows with 160, once in a while I use a 200 broad head but that is generally because I need to weaken my spline a bit on the shaft. Pappy

[PaSteve]

 An arrow is too heavy when the trajectory is unacceptable in the shooters opinion. Basically, it's an individual decision within parameters. Some guys prefer 8 gpp other guys may prefer 15 gpp... Myself, I hunt with 550 - 560 grain bamboo arrows with 190 grain broadheads. That puts me at 12 - 12.5 gpp. All my bows are basically set up like that. I get pretty consistent trajectory (within reason) no matter what bow I'm shooting.