Author Topic: Bends in limbs  (Read 1851 times)

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Offline Bowyer23

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Bends in limbs
« on: July 11, 2021, 07:06:33 am »
Hey guys.

Making a small osage bow. Just wondering, if I'm not able to bend both limbs back to a straight and even position, reckon there's any chance of me getting this to bend evenly and end up with an okay tiller? Any advice would be much appreciated! Thanks

Offline Hamish

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Re: Bends in limbs
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2021, 07:19:25 am »
Get a heat gun, and make a reflexing form, and even up the limbs. It will make your life a hell of a lot easier, when you tiller.

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Bends in limbs
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2021, 09:50:13 am »
A stave with reflex in one limb and deflex in the other would be a nightmare to tiller. A Harbor freight heat gun is cheap, won't last long from what I have heard but will get the job done. If you get the extended warranty for a couple of bucks you can swap one that goes bad for a new one, no questions asked. A heat gun should be in every bowyers arsenal.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2021, 09:53:38 am by Eric Krewson »

Offline Bowyer23

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Re: Bends in limbs
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2021, 10:27:02 am »
Yeah I've got a heat gun and have bend limbs before. Im just worries I won't be able to bend them enough to get them back to even! I'll give it a got go though, it's pretty green osage so should bend fairly easily.  Thanks!

Offline Stixnstones

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Re: Bends in limbs
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2021, 11:06:38 am »
What do you mean by still pretty green? If it is under a year old(seasoned) seal the back and ends and clamp it to either a form or a straight 2×4 and let it season...
DevilsBeachSelfbows

Offline scp

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Re: Bends in limbs
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2021, 11:54:34 am »
I love heat treating the belly, but hate the idea of heat bending the working limbs. I would heat the handle area only to take out the twist and bend just the deflexed limb's tip to match the position of tip ends of reflexed limb. I would consider steaming instead of using dry heat.

Offline Hamish

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Re: Bends in limbs
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2021, 07:04:16 pm »
Don't use a heatgun on green wood, you will get checks. Steam for green.

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: Bends in limbs
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2021, 07:43:01 pm »
Even if you get the limb tips in the same plane relative to the handle, what makes anyone think they'll act the same as a 'normal' bow with the same tiller? So what will your tiller measurement really mean? Nobody could know.

All bows, but especially things like these, should be held and drawn on the tree the way they will be when shot, and then with their strengths adjusted so they draw balanced... not so they look the same when drawn.... but rather so the limb tips travel the same distance to full draw without the handle tipping on the tree or in the hand. This can be, SHOULD be, done with complete disregard to the tiller measurements at brace. Don't even bother measuring it. If done this way, it doesn't matter if the limbs look different, balanced is balanced.
Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

Offline Hamish

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Re: Bends in limbs
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2021, 08:14:44 pm »
 DWS,I agree with your points. An experienced bowyer would have less trouble tillering as is, but a new bowyer will probably get into trouble(though it still can be done). The bowyer will know it shoots well, but 99% of people looking at it will write it off as poorly tillered, and probably wouldn't shoot it or buy it. You would need to carefully educate a potential buyer, and or already have a great reputation as an expert bowyer to get a sale.

One of my early osage bows is like this. I made it before I got into heat bending. It shoots well, but just doesn't look right. I feel like straightening it and sinew backing it.

Offline scp

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Re: Bends in limbs
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2021, 01:10:11 am »
Even if you get the limb tips in the same plane relative to the handle, what makes anyone think they'll act the same as a 'normal' bow with the same tiller? ....

All bows, ... but rather so the limb tips travel the same distance to full draw .... This can be, SHOULD be, done with complete disregard to the tiller measurements at brace. ....

Are you contradicting yourself or trying to answer yourself?

Intuitively and theoretically, all portions of each limb should do the proper amount of work, according to the front width profile and the side thickness profile. There must be many ways to achieve the same result.

bownarra

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Re: Bends in limbs
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2021, 02:03:30 am »
Even if you get the limb tips in the same plane relative to the handle, what makes anyone think they'll act the same as a 'normal' bow with the same tiller? ....

All bows, ... but rather so the limb tips travel the same distance to full draw .... This can be, SHOULD be, done with complete disregard to the tiller measurements at brace. ....

Are you contradicting yourself or trying to answer yourself?

Intuitively and theoretically, all portions of each limb should do the proper amount of work, according to the front width profile and the side thickness profile. There must be many ways to achieve the same result.

No he isn't!
The problem is that the deflexed limb will want ot bend more, even if they were the exact same strengths. The reflexed limb will conversly act stiffer. So to make thisdraw ok'ish you need to havea weak limb and a strong limb......you won't be straining them the same because they are so far out of kilter. Thestrain the wood can take becomes secondarly.
Thesesort of staves may make a good talking point but it is much. much better to straighten it correctly.
However being 'greenish' osage I wouldn't go near it with a heat gun....you will almost certainly wreck it. Seal with shellac then steam it. Clamp it to a straight board then leave it until throughtly dry. Remove from theboard then you can safely tweak theprofile with dry heat.

Offline Bowyer23

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Re: Bends in limbs
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2021, 04:50:56 am »
Thanks for all the replies! Such interesting knowledge. I appreciate it all! Bit of understanding update. As you can see I've got the deflected limb pretty much straight. Now I'm weighing up whether to continue bending that same limb to match the reflex of the other... or do I now bend the reflex back to straight too and go from there?!? Decisions decisions haha.

Offline scp

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Re: Bends in limbs
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2021, 05:56:08 am »
The problem is that the deflexed limb will want ot bend more, even if they were the exact same strengths. The reflexed limb will conversly act stiffer. So to make thisdraw ok'ish you need to havea weak limb and a strong limb......you won't be straining them the same because they are so far out of kilter. Thestrain the wood can take becomes secondarly.
Thesesort of staves may make a good talking point but it is much. much better to straighten it correctly.

In all natural wood staves, one limb would be stiffer than the other one. There are many ways to deal with the problem. But using heat should be the last resort. Are you trying to say that North Andaman bows cannot be tillered properly?

Cf. http://www.tribalartbrokers.net/praisetribal/index.php/the-last-archers-of-the-andaman-islands/

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: Bends in limbs
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2021, 09:17:14 am »
"Intuitively and theoretically, all portions of each limb should do the proper amount of work, according to the front width profile and the side thickness profile."

I agree. And at least as importantly, within that 'proper amount' of work is also the understanding that the limbs should work in harmony when drawn by the archer so that one doesn't overpower the other... because when one limb does, that's when shooting characteristics take a down turn.

Side profiles don't determine limb harmony. We could easily make a reflexed limb act weaker than, and lag behind the limb with deflex. The key is to balance their actual effects on the arrow as much as possible, regardless of what they look like.

In my mind, the ultimate gauge of the limbs' strengths should not be how they appear at brace, or unbraced, but should be the effects of their combined dynamic action... whether their strengths work in harmony in the archer's hands, or one overpowers the other, and if so, to what degree. We won't know this, judge this, predict this, or impart dynamic balance, especially on a bow such as this, with arbitrary brace height tiller measurements as our beacon or gauge, except by outhouse luck.

Assuming a bow like this can't be forced to make the limbs look/seem identical... I'd be interested to hear how others would work it to ensure those limbs were harmonized in the archer's hands when drawn. I'm not saying my way is best, it's probably not, so if there's a different, easier, or more straightforward way than what I'm doing, I'd like to know too.
Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

Offline Don W

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Re: Bends in limbs
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2021, 12:44:41 pm »
In my very limited experience unbalanced limbs show up as hand shock. It doesn't seem logical you could have limbs not in balance and not feel it when you shoot.

I begin my final tillering by shooting. I have found it's the only way I can make a bow shoot smooth, especially if the bow has some anomalies. I don't know if it's the right way, and may get better at another way with experience, but I know right now, I need to shoot it to tell.
Don