Author Topic: Spin-off from the sinew backing question thread and two build alongs  (Read 3095 times)

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Offline ssrhythm

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The build along aspect of this thread may take a while, but maybe not.  Regardless, I was wrong about the bow specs on the "Sinew Backing Questions" thread I posted last week; I was out of town and working from memory.

The specs where I started asking for advice last week:
65.5" tip to tip.  52 ish # at 28".  A little over 1 inch positive tiller.  Limbs bending beautifully.  Tips slightly flipped with nice setback in handle and mild reflex from handle to tips.  A hog-nut-hair shy of 1 3/4 limb width on bottom limb and the same hair more than 1 5/8 top limb width.  My goal: 57-59#

So, I got home and scraped the bottom limb carefully to get it to between 1/4 and 1/2 inch positive tiller.  Bending beautifully still, but now 50# at 28". I cut a shelf in, strung it with a string I built for tillering, and flung three arrows with no nock and no serving and got a ridiculously tight group from ten yards.  Heck yes.  Built a string for it, served it, put yarn puffs on it, put a nock on it, and started flinging from 20, and it shot beautifully and accurately. 

So, I still want a bow with higher draw weight and best performance possible, and after reading replies on the other thread and consulting the Boyer's Bible series, I decided to cut 1.5" of each tip.  This make it 62,5" tip to tip and should increase draw weight ~7#.  But, cutting 1.5" off the mild recurved tips took out some of the benefit of the recurves...so I'm guesstimating it's around 55# as is. 

I just built a recurve jig where you put the tip in the notch and bend around the jig curve, and I am currently steaming the bottom tip.  I made the new jig to have a much tighter radius than I've ever attempted.  I've seen it pulled off on here and in some  Boyers Bible pics.  I want the full recurves for so that when I sinew back it, I'll be getting the most out of the sinew backing performance wise, and I have to make these curves tighter to get there because I only left about 8" of the tip static to begin with.  Now I have about 6.5" of static tip to try to coax into a full recurve. 

I'm going to steam for 1 hour and go straight to the jig and use a piece of sheet metal I just cut off my old steaming contraption to brace the belly in hopes that I can get this bend without pulling up any splinters, cracking, or destroying the belly.  I'm planning on going sloooooow, and if it does not bend really easily, I'll just take what curve I can get.  I'll take pics as I go and post them here for y'all to see either my success or my failure.

After I get that bow backed, I'm going to finish the second bow I have that is going to be about the same length...Maybe an inch shorter, wider limbs, much thinner growth rings and lighter stave (less dense wood) overall.  I'm going to try to get these bows as close to identical as possible regarding length and draw-weight, sinew backing etc...everything but the limb width which I will leave wider on the less dense bow.  In the end, we can see if there is much difference in performance between the two, and then we can have a knock-down drag-out thread over whether or not any of the information from these two bows is relevant to anything important.   

Thanks for the earlier advice, and now...pray for me not to screw up what was a perfectly awesome bow.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 12:45:35 am by ssrhythm »

Offline ssrhythm

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Re: Spin-off from the sinew backing question thread and two build alongs
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2021, 09:56:21 pm »
Here is bow 1 after having shot ~ 30 arrows and remaining strung for an hour.

Notice how right limb is settling back into the reflex I removed from it about 3/4 out.  Have to trust me as I didn’t take pics prior..

Also pic of the top limb tip after 1.5” cut off.

Offline ssrhythm

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Re: Spin-off from the sinew backing question thread and two build alongs
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2021, 10:03:27 pm »
Can someone fix or tell me how to prevent the picture orientation problem?

Dangit!  Here is a pic of bottom limb in jig.  I didn’t realize that the tip wasn’t seated firmly and didn’t have enough of a chock.  Notice the freaking gap!  That’s cool.  I’ll do the other exactly the same, and once I start shaping the tips and cutting in the string grooves, it shouldn’t be noticible.

So I steamed that tip for one hour, wrapped it in a rag dipped in the boiling water for the trip to the garage, and worked pretty quickly, and it still didn’t give me enough time to get all clamps on and get it bent to where it is in the pic.  I had to spread some bear grease on the sides and whip out the heat gun to get the bendy area closest to the handle pliable again and get the clamps tightened down.

Next time I will be boiling the water and steaming in the garage right beside my jig…steam heated wood cools off way faster than I thought it would. 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 12:49:41 am by ssrhythm »

Offline ssrhythm

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Re: Spin-off from the sinew backing question thread and two build alongs
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2021, 10:11:35 pm »
And here are some pics of the less dense, higher growth ring count bow nearing floor tiller.  It is 63.25” tip to tip, but I will cut it to 62.5" to make it as apples to apples with the first bow as possible.  Limbs are 1 3/4” out to 12” from the tips where they taper to 1/2”.  I have a lot of steaming and bending to do on this one.  I have to take out some deflex here and there and add a bit of reflex on both sides to equal the first bows general unstring side profile.
I’m glad it’s still thick, as I’m going to do most of the deflex removal and reflex induction at this stage, as Jim Hamm, I think, said that taking deflex out and adding reflex before beginning tillering will have much higher chance of staying that way than if it’s done after tillering starts and the wood has been bent a good bit.  We will see.  Regardless, it’s going to be a challenge getting this thing shaped into a stable recurve with all the twisting and snaking It’s got going on.

Damn spell check changes deflex to reflex!
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 12:50:16 am by ssrhythm »

Offline ssrhythm

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Re: Spin-off from the sinew backing question thread and two build alongs
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2021, 10:27:42 pm »
Bottom limb tip recurved.  Looking at it, I’d say I got a little froggy on the bend :o
I’m hoping the string tracks like I’m thinking it will, or it’s going to be a biatch to get that harsh of a bend to line up.  Oh well, you can’t make it happen ifin ya don’t give it a go.  Lawd. 
Only one small area on the belly but near the side where a small splinter/crack appeared, but I’ve dealt with more severe cracking in less severe recurves.  I should have plenty of thickness and width to sand well under it and have it eliminated entirely once I get the tips finished.

Honestly, that went better than I’d anticipated; hope the next one goes even better.  I’m going to steam that sucker for 1.25 hours.

Offline ssrhythm

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Re: Spin-off from the sinew backing question thread and two build alongs
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2021, 12:14:33 am »
Ok.  Both tips are recurved.  The second one had more of a cracking/splintering of the belly issue, but all of that is nearly cleaned up with minimal sanding with 120…only paper I have tonight.  Going to put some grooves in and build it a new string and see how the string tracks or dosen't track on the curves before removing any more wood from the tips; I’ll have at least a little bit of room to play side-to-side if the string is off just a touch.  As bad as I want to just plow forward tonight, I think Im going to let it rest and hit it fresh tomorrow so I will have the calmness to deal with it if the string doesn’t track the belly.

I know this is a petty standard bow build, but I want to put it on here as I go so y’all can help me out should something go wrong.  Appreciate it.  Goodnight!
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 12:53:54 am by ssrhythm »

Offline Pat B

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Re: Spin-off from the sinew backing question thread and two build alongs
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2021, 11:49:05 am »
She looks really good so far.  :OK
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline ssrhythm

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Re: Spin-off from the sinew backing question thread and two build alongs
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2021, 10:11:06 pm »
Ok…back at it.  I cut in some rough nocks, built a new string (no, I can’t tie a timber hitch…knot tying drove me out of scouts), and braced it low.  Strings were not dead center on the curve bellies but dang close.  I now had way too much positive tiller again, but I put it up on the rack and drew it to 24” roughly 30-40 times.  Here are pics at various intervals out to 24”.  Please me know what you are seeing regarding tiller problem areas.

I was seeing that the outter 1/3 to 1/4 of both limbs could stand to bend a little more.  The bow at the point in the pictures was 68#@ 24” up from 50lbs at 28” just from taking off 1.5” from each tip and adding full recurves vs the “nearly recurves.”

Offline ssrhythm

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Re: Spin-off from the sinew backing question thread and two build alongs
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2021, 10:38:32 pm »
I took some scrapes off the outter 1/3 of bottom limb and blended Some scrapes in to the outer 2/2 of the limb.  Positive tiller was now a little over 1/2”.  Took a few more scrapes off the bottom limb and got it to a touch over 1/8” positive tiller and bend looking a little better.  At this point, it was ~68# at 27”.  The string not tracking dead center on top limb and dead center on bottom limb.  I twisted up the string and braced it at ~ 5” and went out and flung Four arrows…probably drew it to 25-26? And it was ripping. 

So, I’m too heavy to leave as self bow and I’m planning on sinew backing.  I decided to take 8-10 scrapes off the outer portions of both limbs as both could stand a little more outter limb flex.  After working it in, the bow is now drawing 63-64 lbs at ~ 28”.   I flung 8 more arrows from 15ish yards with no nock or serving, and its Shooting darts fast.  Shot 4 more from 25 yards and despite porposing (sp?) on a couple the couple I guesstimated the mock poing correctly were zipping and I was decently accurate considering how I was shooting it. 

So now I’m rethinking the whole sinew option.

Immediately after unstringing, it looked like it had taken a little set.  I want to prevent this, of course.  My understanding is that sinew will prevent this bow from taking set.  So I’m thinking…definitely sinew then bring weight down to where I want it.

Then, as I’m typing this, I look at the bow, and the set I thought it was taking appears to be gone. 

Look at pic below and you tell me.

So, if it’s taking set and then returning to good within an hour, is it eventually going to take set once I’m shooting it hundreds of times a day for months on end? 

Should I sinew this thing?  I’m making it for Sept 01 elk opener, so will it be dry in time for me to get comfy with it and take it hunting.  It’s dry as #%^# out here, and I think it’ll cure in a month, but that’s just a guess.  If I put three layers of sinew on with slight crown, how much do y’all think it would increase the draw weight? 

What should I do from here? 

My motto is “the enemy of good is better,” but I think that may be keeping me from making a really, really good bow by settling for pretty good.  Arrrg!  I think I’ll have a couple of glasses of wine and wait on some advice and buzzed wisdom. 

Thanks for the replies and advice.  Bow 1 hour after shooting it ~ 12 times.

Offline ssrhythm

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Re: Spin-off from the sinew backing question thread and two build alongs
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2021, 01:42:57 pm »
Slept on it.  I know my posts are long winded, and I’m burying questions within the long-winded ness, so I’ll try to be more brief and separate questions out.

I’ve decided to buck up and sinew the bow.  It’s taking some follow that relaxes out an hour or so after unstringing, but I have not stressed it much.  I think if I leave as is, it’s going to take a disappointing set. 

I was measuring wrong last night; the bow is pulling 67 at 28”.  My plan is to do the sinew job  this point starting tonight and re tiller to desired draw weight after the sinew dries.  Please let me know if this is a mistake or if I should tiller weight down more before sinewing.  Unless someone suggests doing otherwise, I’m going to start the backing process tonight.  Thanks.

Offline Pat B

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Re: Spin-off from the sinew backing question thread and two build alongs
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2021, 02:40:34 pm »
You can go ahead and sinew it now but I would not pull it beyond it's ultimate draw weight. You can also add reflex now and temper the belly then string it backwards a bit before adding the sinew. As the sinew dries you will feel less tension on the string holding it in reflex.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline ssrhythm

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Re: Spin-off from the sinew backing question thread and two build alongs
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2021, 11:29:42 pm »
Thanks for the reply.  I have been processing sinew since I posted that last post.  I have some good long elk backstrap sinew, and I actually wet it and laid it out on the back once I squigeed it out and let it dry to damp to see how muh I was lacking, and I think I have more than what I actually need.  Is there some type of formula regarding weight of sinew that should be applied to a bow like this?  I think I've read that somewhere before, but I cant find it in the BB series...might be overlooking.  I just do not want to put more on than is necessary, and don't want to underdo it and not get the max benefits after all the work that this has been and will be. 


I looked at the sinew tutorial at the top of  the read only forum detailing the method of laying it all on there at once, wrapping with linnen strips, heating it with a hair dryer to get the excess glue out and smooth out and shape the sinew...that looks super slick and seems to be a great way to do the job.  I will stiring it backward slightly into reflex before starting the job, and proceed tomorrow, as the processing job was all I can handle today. 


Offline ssrhythm

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Re: Spin-off from the sinew backing question thread and two build alongs
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2021, 01:23:15 am »
Just finished wrapping, heating, and forming the sinew I puts down using PatM ‘s “smooth sinew made easy” method from the top sticky in the archives section.

After reading the sinew backing section in TBB vol 1 again and seeing where Jim Hamm said it would take around 12-15 backstrap sinews to do the average bow, I was thinking I maybe didn’t have enough.  I processed 2 more elk back strap sinews and started.  I ended up using nearly all of it, and now I’m thinking I put way too much on.  I know it’s going to shrink, and I know the tendency would be to under-do it, so I kept laying on there till I felt like I was overdoing it.  Arrrrgh!  We shall see.  I’m going to keep wrapping and heating and squeezing glue out and compressing maybe 3 or 4 times.  I guess If I end up with as much sinew as limb, I can always sand it down.  Praying this turns out good, because it’s been a bunch of, s as no zi mean a bunch of work. 

bownarra

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Re: Spin-off from the sinew backing question thread and two build alongs
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2021, 03:01:45 pm »
You should string it backwards now and increase the reflex by a few inches. Ideally you should have done that before sinewing and gradually increased it over time.
Also sinew dries quickest when applied in 1mm thick layers (dried thickness). A layer this thick takes 2 weeks to fully dry. You then add another layer, increase reflex. Let it dry. Repeat until you have enough on the bow.
1mm thick will take 2 weeks to dry, 2mm 4 weeks, 3mm 9 weeks, 4mm 16 weeks.
Generally I will use 60 - 90 grammes of sinew for a bow like yours. Crowned down the middle as much as possible.
Don't worry about having put too much on it will dry down to a much lesser thickness soon.
Be careful about wrapping/heating your sinew job afterwards. It is possible to squeeze out too much glue. There is no need to do any of that stuff once you have a feel for sinewing....however it takes a lot of practise to get good ;) So it can be useful. To each his own.
Good luck.

Offline ssrhythm

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Re: Spin-off from the sinew backing question thread and two build alongs
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2021, 11:41:59 pm »
Well, I tried to use PatM's method, and I screwed it up.  Basically, I put way too much sinew on and did not fray it out as finely as I should have.  This, combined with trying to squeeze excess glue out, resulted in a mess of sinew that was applied way too thick and was likely going to not be very uniform in nature at all.  So, I pulled it all off shortly after I wrote the last post and went to bed agrivated.

I missed a key question to myself prior to starting this: what is the purpose of this sinew job?  Ideally I want protection against the bow taking set and enhancement of performance.  This bow is performing well, so I should have entered the project with the idea of erring on the light side, as it won't take much of a sinew layer to provide the benefits of raising the tension plane some and protecting the belly from set.

I do have it strung backwards in the photos.  I added just a tad more reflex by shortening the string a touch.

I also make the mistake of wetting the sinew bundles and letting them dry before trying to rehydrate and saturate with glue for the backing job.  Don't do this! 

Saturday, I woke up and started processing out new backstrap sinew, and I took extra time to get plenty of bundles of varying lengths well processed.  I took them to the bow and laid them out according to how I was going to put them down on the bow with a deliberate, thin, three layers in mind with an extra crown layer running down the center of the bow.  I weighed each bundle to make sure each corresponding bundle was approximately the same amount as well as to come up with a total sinew weight used to back this bow for future reference.

During processing, I noticed three particular backstrap tendons were particularly greasy/oily, so after laying the bundles out in the order I was going to apply them, I got my glue mixed (2 cups of water and 6 packets of Knox) and prepared my double boiler.

I then filled one side of my sink with a very strong dawn and warm water solution with the faucet set to the other side.  I took each bundle and washed them thoroughly in the dawn and warm water while working any tangles out of the frayed ends.  After washing, I rinsed them thoroughly under warm running water while ringing them out and stretching them as much as possible...this stretched the bundles and aided in making sure they were clear of the dawn and oils the dawn took with it.  I laid each bundle back where it came from and smoothed it out and left them very wet, as I did not want to have to deal with the pain of a wet bundle that had dried prior to going in the glue.

As soon as all the bundles were washed and flattened, I sized the back and sides of the bow again...probably didn't need to considering the previous job, but I did for good measure...and I started dipping for 20-30 seconds, wringing out all the excess glue (different than PatM's method) and laying down the first layer per usual.  I spread each layer out per usual, and proceeded to apply three layers well overlapped and brick-patterned taking care to get the overlapping ends and bundles "smushed" together and melding.  I used nearly all of the bundles I had prepared, but I did have some left over.  The leftover is drying now, and I'll weigh it tomorrow and subtract it from the total weight of the bundles I had prepared to know exactly how much I put on the bow.  I want to get some exact numbers with this job to try and dial in some exact numbers for future projects and for others to reference.  If it turns out that I needed to add more sinew, Ill know what weight of dry sinew to prepare and apply next time...same goes for if I realize that I overdid the job and hit or passed a point of diminishing returns. 

After I was done, I did apply one liberal coat of warm hide glue to the entire back to get into any areas where fresh sinew was being laid upon or beside already gelled sinew and maybe did not meld together as well as I wanted.  I gave that a chance to start gelling, and I tightly applied co-ban wrap which is very elastic, easy to work with, breathable, and self adhereing.  Once wrapped, I used a thin vase and rolled up and down the back with enough pressure to smoothe it out, but not so much to move stuff around.  As I did this, I tried to keep in mind the crowned contour of the back.  I did use PatM's method a bit at this point, as I took out the hairdryer and heated everything up until the coban started to absorb the excess glue I had slopped on at the end of the backing process. 

Not wanting to pull any of the bundles or fibres up, I put the bow in my small bathroom with a window unit, and closed it in there.  After an hour, I slowly started unwrapping the co-ban, because I was worried that I may have glued it to the back of the bow.  As I unwrapped past the thinner layer toward the tip, it came free very nicely from the smooth sinew that had already dried fairly well.  The next wrap revealed that the thicker areas were still wet, of course, as I progressed into the meat of the limbs, so I just wrapped it back up and stuck it back in the cool, dry bathroom.  I'm going to leave it as is for 12 hours and remove the wrap early tomorrow morning and give her a look-see. 

I am much, much happier with the amount I laid down this time, and I'm hoping my wrapping job did not displace any sinew and leave any exposed edge spots or wonky, off center high areas.  Regardless, I'm optimistic.  I did video this whole shebang from processing the sinew to washing it to laying it down to wrapping her up.  I did this because all the videos and advice I seem to find on youtube and in TBB and on forums seem to live in the realm of the subjective.  While I know this is an art and there is no set formula, knowing things like..."2 cups of water and 6 packets of knox gelatin produces resutlts that work perfectly for me" would be much better than "I put about yay amount of water and two or four packets of knox and stir it up till its about light brownish and the consistency of table syrup or a little thinner."  It may not really matter, as some have hypothesized, but when you are new at something and doing it for the first time and not wanting to screw it up, it is helpful to have as much concrete, non-subjective info as possible...at least it seems to be helpful in that you can proceed with less doubt screwing with your mind as you go.

I'll take some pics of the unwrapping tomorrow, and once this is all done and I'm flinging flaming arrows with it, I'll try to edit the video into something watchable and get it posted up too.

Thanks for all the advice; hopefully I will find out that I put it to good use.