Positive,negetive, or symmetrical. Where does your arrow ride?

[Yellowstave]

So guys, on your best smoothest bows is it always positive tiller or is there something smoother about symmetry? I understand the correlations between ones shooting style but it seems to my feeble mind that equal limb length would slam the string taught at closer to the same time resulting in a more harmonic balance. How big a factor is this in shooting for speed.

[Pat B]

I make my bows symmetrical, The center of the handle is the center of the bow so the arrow pass is on top of my bow hand about 1 1/2" above center.

[Dances with squirrels]

My best, smoothest bows aren't always any one tiller profile... and they're virtually never of symmetrical design. I don't tiller them to a predetermined tiller measurement. Instead, I balance the strengths of the limbs relative to my fulcrums on bow and string, and allow the tiller measurements to be whatever they end up as.

Each selfbow stave can be shaped a little, or a lot different. And even if two staves have the same unbraced profile, they can have differences in inherent strengths between their respective limbs. So why in the world would I assume all bows will all act the same, or any certain way at all, if I make them all 1/4" positive, for instance. I can't. They won't. So I don't. I'm not satisfied with the odds, or results, of guessing or hoping a bow will act as I expect with predetermined tiller measurements.

My best behaved bows are those whose braced tiller measurements I ignore until tillering is complete. They're those that carry balanced, and draw balanced throughout the entire draw, are inherently tuned and quiet with the first arrow shot. They're those that I designed with the bow center, and bow and string hand fulcrums in near alignment with one another, and then balance the strength of the limbs relative to those fulcrums, which keeps the dynamic balance point right there among them too. These are the sweetest shooting, smoothest, best balanced bows I've made, and I can predict them acting as such one after another... regardless of what their various tiller measurements are. I don't even CARE what they are. They don't all 'look' the same at brace, but they do 'act' the same, and that is infinitely more important to me.

[SLIMBOB]

+1 Pat.  I simply tiller it to accommodate the arrow pass being above center. If you flip it around, the tiller will be off.

[Pat B]

The thing about symmetrical tiller is if the tiller goes out you can flip it over. I've done this when the lower limb takes too much set.

[PatM]

Slight positive at brace and throughout draw and a longer upper limb.

[DC]

I do mine like PatB. I guess I'm not much of an archer because I've never noticed a "balance" difference. Maybe I've lucked into it with all 70 bows. I've read all the posts and tried all the methods(well, most) and I always just drop back into the bend it til it looks right method. I don't know that I could tell an unbalanced bow if you whacked me upside the head with it.

[bradsmith2010]

well,, if you are getting perfect arrow flight,, the bow is probably tillered well,,or 195 fps,, Like DC
lots of factors going into tiller,, bottom line its gotta shoot well,,
and I think can be done with equal length limbs,, or not,,how ever you gonna measure that,,
for me personally,, I like the bow to balance in my hand,, then I place the arrow according to that and tiller the bow to shoot well,,so I would just have to assume the limbs are slamming the string taught at the right time,, when the arrow flys well,,,or really fast,,
  some people grip the bow so differently and put different pressure on the string,,so tiller may vary depending on the person,, I would say your release is more critical to speed,,,than length of limbs,,

[Pat B]

You should be able to feel if a bow is balanced when you draw it. Even pressure in your hand means evenly balanced limbs, no matter whether the bow is symmetrical or asymmetrical . Look at the Yumi bows. Lengthwise they are not balanced but shooting wise they are.

[bradsmith2010]

thats a great example,, I hope to shoot one sometime,,never have

[Yellowstave]

I see what you're saying patb. So why don't bowyers go with negative tiller. It seems a reverse yumi bow would be quite handy in a wooded hunting environment. If it just comes down to feeling then a shorter top limb would get under a lot of trash in the woods.

[bradsmith2010]

On shorter bow,,.if the tiller is negative,,,it will be hard to tune..positive tiller is the result of getting the bow to shoot well,..don't ask me to explain why
  if you have a short top limb,, you can have a short bottom limb and its much easier to hunt with,,you can still have positive tiller with both limbs short,,
   if you will make a bow,, especially something a bit shorter, you will see how much better it shoots with postive tiller,,
 

[PatM]

You can see how forgiving a bow actually is by stringing up a bamboo pole and shooting it.   After you find the sweet spot, flip it and shoot it upside down. Compare.

[Weylin]

I build some bows with symmetrical limbs and a slight positive tiller and I build some bows with a longer top limb and a positive tiller. I don't notice a difference in shooting between the two. I'm not convinced it matter s a whole lot as long as the bow is tillered well for it's design. Arguments I've heard pushing one or the other have never felt really convincing to me. If someone has a good argument, I'm all ears. Until then I'll remain wishy-washy. 

[George Tsoukalas]

Arrow pass for my bows is 1.25 in above enter but that can vary depending on tiller. I like the bottom limb slightly stronger or at least even at full draw. Both limbs the same size.
I've tried other designs but like the option of flipping the bow around depending on tuning.
Jawge