Author Topic: why tonkin bamboo shafts and arrows might fail...part 2  (Read 3933 times)

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Offline Todd Mathis

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why tonkin bamboo shafts and arrows might fail...part 2
« on: November 01, 2019, 08:08:03 am »
the part 1 message board was great to get a view of how much thinking ya'll put into arrows.  I also very much appreciate the thoughts.  But I didn't want to get too far down any bunny trails.  Let me clarify what I was saying, just to be sure I don't miscommunicate. 
The bamboo I sell, when it breaks across the arrow instead of splitting along the grain means the arrow had too much "sideway"stress upon impact or pulling from a target.  The arrow wasn't lined up before impact.  We all know that all arrows flex when coming off a traditional bow.
The bamboo I sell, when it IS lined up, fails by splitting along the arrow if it has previous damage, or the target was too dense, etc.
When a customer shows me 2 broken shafts, NOT ARROWS, (which I have NEVER had reported before, and has never happened to me AND the customer does bare shaft tuning, which I know nothing about, but was happening when they broke...it JUST MIGHT BE that these shafts aren't compatible with bare shaft tuning.  They weren't brittle, they weren't dry.  If one was defective, that could happen, but not 2 out of 12.  I spend WAY too much time going over them to have 2 out of 12 be defective.  The very very dense backstop he was using probably didn't help these shafts when they hit it AND were still flexing. 
The ARROW that broke is a different story.  I understand how it broke, and the customer understands that and has explained it accurately...but that's another story.
Here is what I learned.  First of all, ya'll know a great deal about things of which I have a limited understanding.  Bare shaft tuning would be a great example.  I'm not trying to defend a product here.  But now that I have an opportunity to have MY OWN COMPANY, I want THAT COMPANY to be up to scratch.  I know all of you have experienced dishonesty from companies just as I have.  NOT BEING COMPLETELY FORTHCOMING WITH INFORMATION is a great example.  I have ZERO interest in misleading anyone.  That is why I quickly researched the problem and posted a warning on Bamboo arrow university for all to see.
Since I can't control everything that happens with my shafts after they leave my workshop, it is incumbent on ME to make certain information such as this is not a secret...Everyone here knows what integrity is, AND it is just good business.  (sorry guys but I am so tired of companies who just don't get that...it is a personal passion of mine to be sure I AM up to scratch with my business.  The older I get, the more passionate I feel about my values.  I suspect everyone here knows EXACTLY what I am saying...) 
I want to thank Jim for putting the rest of those shafts through a thorough test once they are finished arrows.  I very much look forward to what he has to report.  I will certainly put it up on bamboo arrow university and post a link here so all can see.  He may be trying to break my shafts, but he is also generously putting on his own time, heads and feathers, which I think is quite generous.  I also am sending him some shafts because he just became a product tester too...poor guy!
What I've learned from everyone else who has contributed is that you guys ARE SOME SERIOUS ARCHERS!  I feel like I have FINALLY found an archery peer group where I can learn some great information and I really do enjoy it.  Am I the only one here going to OJAM?  Best to all, and thanks for reading this long epistle. 

Offline Deerhunter21

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Re: why tonkin bamboo shafts and arrows might fail...part 2
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2019, 11:00:24 am »
Im going to disagree with your claim that your arrows may not be ment for bare shaft tuning. I dont see how they could not! Basically if its too stiff or not stiff enough it will fly to the left or to the right and hit it at an angle instead of straight on. this may cause the force that is going straight foreward  to cause the arrow to bend. They may break! so if its not hitting straight on you make it stiffer or not according to what happens and once it hits straight on that means you have the perfect spined arrow that you need! I would say that its not your fault if it breaks because of that. it can happen to all arrows! so just because it breaks doesn't mean its not compatable for bear shaft tuning!  ;D
Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.

Offline willie

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Re: why tonkin bamboo shafts and arrows might fail...part 2
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2019, 06:42:54 pm »
Quote
...it JUST MIGHT BE that these shafts aren't compatible with bare shaft tuning.

Todd, you might be right, or it's more likely the guy doing the testing was doing it wrong. >:(

this vid might be something you could point to if a customer insists on bareshaft tuning in the future.
Code: [Select]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGOPiriLbcM

Offline Todd Mathis

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Re: why tonkin bamboo shafts and arrows might fail...part 2
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2019, 09:10:03 am »
Im going to disagree with your claim that your arrows may not be ment for bare shaft tuning. I dont see how they could not! Basically if its too stiff or not stiff enough it will fly to the left or to the right and hit it at an angle instead of straight on. this may cause the force that is going straight foreward  to cause the arrow to bend. They may break! so if its not hitting straight on you make it stiffer or not according to what happens and once it hits straight on that means you have the perfect spined arrow that you need! I would say that its not your fault if it breaks because of that. it can happen to all arrows! so just because it breaks doesn't mean its not compatable for bear shaft tuning!  ;D
Well...you may be dead right.  Theoretically you are right.  Do you suppose that the hollow grass tube is an exception?  I'm encouraged by what you wrote, but I have never ever seen two shafts fail like these did.  As long as everyone is aware of the potential...the I'm going to learn from ya'll.  I simply don't know enough about bare shaft tuning to have any opinion.  Thanks.

Offline Todd Mathis

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Re: why tonkin bamboo shafts and arrows might fail...part 2
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2019, 09:16:12 am »
Quote
...it JUST MIGHT BE that these shafts aren't compatible with bare shaft tuning.

Todd, you might be right, or it's more likely the guy doing the testing was doing it wrong. >:(

this vid might be something you could point to if a customer insists on bareshaft tuning in the future.
Code: [Select]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGOPiriLbcM
WOW!  that was very educational to me!  So, this video says that you use bare shafts to tune the BOW, not to match the arrows to the bow....  OK...That explains a great deal.  Am I understanding this correctly?  Well, I have some thinking to do.  Thanks Willie.

Offline Todd Mathis

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Re: why tonkin bamboo shafts and arrows might fail...part 2
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2019, 09:24:58 am »
Quote
...it JUST MIGHT BE that these shafts aren't compatible with bare shaft tuning.

Todd, you might be right, or it's more likely the guy doing the testing was doing it wrong. >:(

this vid might be something you could point to if a customer insists on bareshaft tuning in the future.
Code: [Select]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGOPiriLbcM
WOW!  that was very educational to me!  So, this video says that you use bare shafts to tune the BOW, not to match the arrows to the bow....  OK...That explains a great deal.  Am I understanding this correctly?  Well, I have some thinking to do.  Thanks Willie.
ok!  When I got to 5:20 seconds into the video, he speaks exactly to what may have happened.  MOST COOL!  Thanks.  Like I said in my article...we don't know what we don't know.  Can't wait to shoot with some of ya'll.

Offline DC

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Re: why tonkin bamboo shafts and arrows might fail...part 2
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2019, 10:03:23 am »
WOW!  that was very educational to me!  So, this video says that you use bare shafts to tune the BOW, not to match the arrows to the bow....  OK...That explains a great deal.  Am I understanding this correctly?  Well, I have some thinking to do.  Thanks Willie.
No. Bare shaft tuning is to tune the arrow to match the bow by changing it's spine. You don't do anything to the bow.

Offline willie

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Re: why tonkin bamboo shafts and arrows might fail...part 2
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2019, 05:04:22 pm »
DC is technically correct.

 I suppose it is worth noting that many fiberglass ie. (centershot handled) and compound shooters have ways to tune their bows that are not used much by primitive shooters. So it might not be unreasonable some to make bow adjustments when their arrows yaw. Most that use sights, tune for smaller groups than primitive or trad., and therefore demand more consistent arrow flight
Primitive folks utilizing all natural materiel's, would of course put much more adjustments into the arrow. In fact, they have to when handles get wider and paradox becomes a factor.