New heat treating method??

[Tuomo]

It is simple physics. You all know the wood equilibrium moisture content charts, which tells, what is the equilibrium moisture content in some ambient humidity. For example, google "wood equilibrium moisture content table". But, those tables hold true only, when wood is naturally air dried.

If you first dry wood to totally dry (moisture content 0 %) and let it get back to equilibrium moisture, the the wood equilibrium moisture contents will be much lower. For example, let's suppose that air dried stave is in relative humidity, which is 50 %. Then its equilibrium moisture content is in 20 C (68 F) about 9,2 %. But, if you first dry the stave totally dry, so "heat treat" it as a whole stave, then its equilibrium moisture content will be in 50 % relative humidity about 6–7 %. Much better!

The problem is that longer and harder (more heat) the heat treating is, the more difference in equilibrium moisture content, but wood will be more brittle also, as it loses its strength. It is not easy to find optimal heat treating parameters for the whole stave. Of course, the best solution would be to dry the stave totally (a day in oven, about 100–120 C (210–250 F)) and then make traditional heat treating to the belly of the tillered bow.

[Nasr]

Santana,  We have never said anywhere or anytime that fire hardening was forgotten information or a revelation.  Those have been your  words.  We have given credit time and time again to the ancients and to modern science.  A week or so ago somewhere on this board, Deerhunter asked if anyone could give him advice on moisture management on a hickory stave/bow.  The answers were the same answers that have been given for the last 20 years.   The fact that you all gave those answers is the very proof that no one on this board has a clue what the "forgotten information" or "revelation" really is.  When the DVD comes out the answers you all gave will be obsolete.  Not trying to speak for Thad, but I am certain the answer to your question is yes.

This is from Shannon primitive website. It says forgotten.

  But what if there was a technique that would make whitewood bows immune to moisture? What if this technique was forgotten after archery was supplanted by the modern firearm? And what if, centuries later, this technique was rediscovered by a modern primitive archer with an innate curiosity of ancient ways? That’s what led to experimenting with fire-hardening that gave birth to Fire Dancer Bows

[Nasr]

TBH it’s good that you rediscovered fire hardening I can only imagine how good Marc’s bows would be now. I think Marc was just spraying water on his bow limbs hahaha. All jokes aside I wish you great success and hope that your claims hold weight if they do I will be the first to buy your dvd.

[Marc St Louis]

Fire hardening of an entire stave at one time is not possible since the bow can only face a fire one side at a time, unless of course you stick it into an oven. 

One bow I saw on his/their YouTube video was very similar to a bow I made in early 2000, it was a highly reflexed flatbow.  The bow had a very uniform reflex and the only way you can make such a bow is to clamp it onto a form in reflex and then heat-treat the belly, you can't do anything to the back since it is on the form.  You could then heat-treat the back once the bow is taken off the form.  I really don't think they did this a few hundred years ago.

Anyway I guess all will unfold when their DVD comes out

[PatM]

I do think a fire allows pretty good heating of the whole bow despite only one side facing the actual heat source though.  The "bubble" of hot air is  going to be pretty uniform and not as  prone to charring from bounce back as a form can be.

 You do have to go with a backward brace rather than an actual form which is a bit more finicky regarding reflex distribution and keeping twist out.  The ability to hit the whole limb at once does minimize this though.

 If you just backward brace over a smaller heat source  you tend to run into erratic reflex.
 
 I use our backyard fire pit for heat treating now.

[Santanasaur]

Shannon,  I don’t think you can summarize the state of knowledge on heat treating on  this site based on advice given to a beginner asking for beginner advice. This would be much a  more productive conversation if we knew more about what you’re selling. I mean, when I i buy a book there’s a blurb that summarizes what i’m getting. I would be suspicious if a book flap said things like best book ever or totally revolutionizes obsolete writing techniques from the last 20 years. I’d wanna preview some revolutionary writing before I put my money down and I wouldn’t buy a book that only talks about how great it is  without summarizing what’s in it. So far all you’ll say is that you rediscovered a fire hardening technique. Fire hardening is well established in primitive circles and the fact that it may or may not have been forgotten to bowyers on this continent doesn’t speak for the rest of the world.

I really hope you have something interesting, but if giving us a whiff of your perfume is enough to copy the whole thing, well then all you’ve got is a scent and no perfume to sell. The value is in the dvd and not in a scaled abstract summary of it. I think you can give more away without losing value. Show us the scratch and sniff version of your process and this could be a much more productive discussion, both for us and for your sales.

Now marketing  these as the best self bows and best wooden bows ever, and then coming to the bowyers bar and validating the claim,  well there is no fragile shipping option for that kinda package. Show us what you got

.

[bradsmith2010]

it seems like guys that could make a pyramid,, could make a caul,,if need be,,
yes of course maybe they didnt,, but it does not seem that impossible to me,,
or dig a pit and heat it like an oven,, with the caul on it,, if they wanted,, I am just guessing,, but doesnt seem out of the realm of possibility,, I am not worried,, my osage bow is immune to moisture,, and I am not that into heat treating,, I have a great plum bow ,, made by one of the best bowyers in the world,,it was not heat treated,, and I think it shoots amazing,,,

[Marc St Louis]

I do think a fire allows pretty good heating of the whole bow despite only one side facing the actual heat source though.  The "bubble" of hot air is  going to be pretty uniform and not as  prone to charring from bounce back as a form can be.

 You do have to go with a backward brace rather than an actual form which is a bit more finicky regarding reflex distribution and keeping twist out.  The ability to hit the whole limb at once does minimize this though.

 If you just backward brace over a smaller heat source  you tend to run into erratic reflex.
 
 I use our backyard fire pit for heat treating now.

Well Pat as someone who has toasted a few bows over a fire I can tell you that you would need a bit of magic to heat-treat both side of a bow that way. 

A fire, a good bed of coals actually works better, does temper wood quite well though and in fact you can pretty well do one whole limb at a time. 

A backwards brace is trickier to do, perhaps you'll remember I actually started out doing it that way originally, and getting a uniform shape practically impossible.

I thought I saw them using a form in their YouTube vid

[Santanasaur]

A couple times i’ve heat treated whole bellies while clamped in a form over a long trench of coals. I like that more than a fire pit. Works better for straighter bows since I haven’t figured out how to build up the coals to match the profile of recurves. I’ve gotten better heat treating cooking the whole limb still like a steak rather than moving it around the fire like I would have to do with a non straight limb. Maybe I’m missing something but i always thought it was good that the back wasn’t directly exposed to heat like the belly

[PatM]

I do think a fire allows pretty good heating of the whole bow despite only one side facing the actual heat source though.  The "bubble" of hot air is  going to be pretty uniform and not as  prone to charring from bounce back as a form can be.

 You do have to go with a backward brace rather than an actual form which is a bit more finicky regarding reflex distribution and keeping twist out.  The ability to hit the whole limb at once does minimize this though.

 If you just backward brace over a smaller heat source  you tend to run into erratic reflex.
 
 I use our backyard fire pit for heat treating now.

Well Pat as someone who has toasted a few bows over a fire I can tell you that you would need a bit of magic to heat-treat both side of a bow that way. 

A fire, a good bed of coals actually works better, does temper wood quite well though and in fact you can pretty well do one whole limb at a time. 

A backwards brace is trickier to do, perhaps you'll remember I actually started out doing it that way originally, and getting a uniform shape practically impossible.

I thought I saw them using a form in their YouTube vid

   I do remember that bow and the hot plate heat source.   I do think using a larger or longer heat source mitigates those problems greatly.

  I  was thinking that less of a heat treat of the back is a safer option so not actually  having it face the fire is better all around.

 The lack of a caul while heating can be offset by just quickly moving the stave to the form immediately after removing it from the fire.  Just like steaming.

[Santanasaur]

what’s the trouble using a caul over fire? its a bit awkward to manipulate but if you get nice coals you won’t have to move things much. I’ve bound cauls with thick rope so i don’t have to put clamps in the fire. It’s very clumsy if you want to keep moving the stave like a marshmallow but fine for cooking staves more like a steak. I still use a heat gun because that switch is very convenient

[Flint Arrow]

It will come out in time. When we release the dvd and not before. No person has to pay for anything.  No one is bending your arm to do anything. That is your call. You will have to wait like any other person who has an interest. If you do not have an interest well keep your money in your pocket.  The world does not revolve around opinions at the bowyers bar.  Thousands of primitive archers do not worship at the Bowyers bar.  We just wanted to share our concept but i was hoping for a more open minded reaction. Seems some try to dissect each word trying to find fault. Hinging on each word looking for something to prove someone wrong. I am very disappointed with the nature of this forum and will not be back. This is how you think we should treat fellow bow makers. Count me out. Show us what "you" have added to the world of primitive archery. We known you can be critical with words but show me your physical contribution.  No work or experiments? Paul Comstock, Mark St. Louis, and now Keith Shannon has worked very hard to move the use of white wood bows forward. What is your claim to fame. Hero with words. I understand the Title one wants as forum top dog....but tell me your contribution. Chime in, there is no fragile shipping charge for you sharing your vast knowledge here. This is my last post. Sorry it was controlled by snipers looking to make a forum name for themselves.  Someone on this forum even talked about how Billy's facial features looked when shooting his bow and it was said he looked like he was taking a dump.  Really. Forum Rules? We have always give credit to the people that came before us. We just wanted to share our information. Not to be attacked and called fakes and liars . Someone referred to Billy taking a dump..Really. The forums rules are not being applied here equally and  personal attacks are not permitted by your own rules. I have had a subscription to Primitive Archer since the first magazine came out and last i heard Primitive Archer still control this forum. But i am wasting words here and will not  use this forum. Are you happy now it all yours.  This does not help promote a positive attitude toward Primitive Archer Magazine or the sport of primitive archery.. You can debate but personel attacks will not cut it. No need to respond i am not interested . Gone from here.

[kbear]

Wow. I have been away for a week........... That escalated quickly.

Speaking for myself, I am keen to see this technique, and apply it to my own bows. I will be getting the DVD as soon as it is available.

And, if Shannon has indeed re-introduced a forgotten or revolutionary method of heat treating a bow, I will hence be referring to the process as Shannon Fire Hardening. Respect.

I am sorry for the loss of Flint Arrow.

kbear off comms.

[burchett.donald]

      +1 Kbear,     There are times I am embarrassed to be a member here, this is one of those times...

[bassman]

Wow, 118 replies, and 2414 views. Seems like inquiring minds want to know.Time will tell.