Rifle ID

[snedeker]

Hope this is ok.  This not about muzzle loader,  This pic is Mary Fields, mail coach "shotgun" rider in Montana in 1890s.  Anybody recognize model on this musket style winchester?  Heavy  frame type or one of the.44-40s.  Looks heavy
Dave

[Pat B]

Dave, I don't believe that is a muzzle loader but a lever action repeater. It may be black powder.

[snedeker]

Oh, I know its a Winchester repeater.  I just wonder which model.  I think may be 1876 or 1886 larger frame type.  I put it here on Muzzle Loader page because I figured it was best place

[gifford]

Yep, it's a Model 1876 Winchester carbine with wood forearm covering the magazine tube. This version was adopted by the RCMP, aka The Mounties as their issue carbine.

The 1876 Winchester was a heavier version of the 1873 Winchester. I would guess the caliber is 45-60.

Winchester's goal was to make their rifles compatible with US Army 45/70 Cartridge but the link and toggle mechanism of the 1876 and 1873 Winchesters was not sufficiently robust to handle that cartridge.

And yes, they were all black powder cartridges at that time.

[snedeker]

Thanks Giff.  I had a hunch it was one of the big guns.  They don't show up much in photos or certainly on film.  Cool

[Eric Krewson]

Cartridge guns are not talked about on this forum, it's the rules.

[mullet]

I moved it here. It's not a muzzle loader.

[JEB]

gifford, were the center fire cartridges black powder as well. I have found many center fire and rim fire 45/70 casings while metal detecting out west. I found very few 45/60 casings.

[Parnell]

What an interesting picture.  I'll have to look her up.

[gifford]

As I recall the 45/70 was originally black powder and in modern firearms is loaded with smokeless powder. It replaced the 50/70 which was the Army cartridge after the civil war till 1873. Both were centerfire. The rifle, the Model 1873 single shot Trapdoor Springfield used the 45/70 loaded with 70 grains of black powder. the Carbine load was loaded with 55 grains of black powder, if I recall correctly.

Upon further research I found the 1876 Carbine issued to the Mounties was 45/75, not the 45/60 as I originally thought. Still the 45/60 was a popular round in the day.

I'm not sure what you are finding with the rimfire, perhaps Spencer or Henry rifle cartridges, both saw lots of use out west.

[DC]

When you guys say 45/70 or 45/60. 45 is the caliber, right? Whet is the other number? The 60 or 70.

[JEB]

45 is the cal and the second number, 60 or 70 is the weight of the powder in grains. If I remember right Quigleys gun was a Sharps 45/110.

About half the cartridges we found metal detecting were rim fire and the other half was center fire. There were soldiers moving thru area where we found them  around 1866 give or take a few years. We also found many 44/40 casings.  Even found a few live rounds in both calibers.

I understand the round of choice for the Gatling gun  in 1866 was the 45/70 which was a rim fire cartridge.  That had to hurt, lol

[DC]

So that is the manufacturers recommended weight of powder? I hear of guys messing with that.
Part two- I was just watching an old video of making a flintlock rifle and the announcer said that the calibre was the number of balls they could get from a pound of lead. I always thought that was the gauge, as in 12 gauge. Calibre is the diameter in inches isn't it.

[JEB]

The modern loaders fool around with the grains in the loads but hand loader books give the specs they should follow.  I load and don't fool with amounts of powder. I stick to recommended  specs.

Yes 45 cal would be the size of bullet. An example would be 50 cal is 1/2 inch. I think it is actually .510 inches

[Marc St Louis]

Looks a lot like the rifle my grandmother had.  It was chambered for the 44-40 and she used it to kill many deer and bears