Author Topic: Zuma, I got a massive overshot video for you.  (Read 13404 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline aaron

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,037
Re: Zuma, I got a massive overshot video for you.
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2017, 09:38:10 am »
is there anyone except cushing who describes something like this?
What makes you say cumberlands were fluted this way?
Thanks for all the info, Ben.
Ilwaco, Washington, USA
"Good wood makes great bows, but bad wood makes great bowyers"

Offline aaron

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,037
Re: Zuma, I got a massive overshot video for you.
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2017, 10:09:17 am »
more questons after reading cushing's "the arrow".
cushing describes several techniques for various stages of reduction which I have summarized below:
spalling quarry rock- driect percussion on an anvil.
trimming spalls to a preform- direct percussion on the leg.
thinning- indirect percussion on an anvil (this is the technique Ben demonstrates as being done with biface clamped in a bent leg)
finishing- ishi stick on an anvil or in the hand (he doesn't ise the term ishi stick, of course)

So cushing describes a suite of techniques, one of which is the way you are promoting. In your posts, you seem to say that this "cushing technique" was the mainway things were made throughout North American stone age. Have I misunderstood you? Do you agree that cushing is describing several techniques later used by "crabtree style" knappers (baton on the leg, hammer and anvil, ishi stick)?

You say that there is no evidence of baton knapping in the style of crabtree, etc... but how about the drawing on page 317 of a fellow who has a preform on top of his leg, holding it down with his hand while striking directly with a hammer? This seems to show that "crabtree style" knapping was used.

cushing shows a drawing of a punch technique (discussed on another thread here) where the guy is kneeling on the biface, which is atop a large boulder. You stated previously that you think this is a incorrect illustration and that the knapping was done with the biface and anvil held between the upper and lower leg- sandwiched in flesh, if you will. Why do you think this is so? Wouldn't he have at least consulted on the drawings for the book? Do we have info on the illustrator?
Ilwaco, Washington, USA
"Good wood makes great bows, but bad wood makes great bowyers"

Offline Hummingbird Point

  • Member
  • Posts: 147
Re: Zuma, I got a massive overshot video for you.
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2017, 03:13:58 pm »
Ben,

Ray I don't know.  Grinnel, is there anything more to it than what you have here?:  http://antlerdrift.blogspot.com/
If yes, I would be very interested in reading more and would greatly appreciate any help you can give on finding the source.  Also for Ray.

Aaron,

Yeah.  I think from the written description I would have drawn it in a similar way.  He says "against a hammer stone (anvil stone)".  Why add the "anvil stone" part unless you mean a bigger rock?  Then he mentions alternately using a "block or log".  I could see a small "block" fitting under your knee and on top of the calf muscle, but "log" makes me think, same as "anvil stone" something bigger.  If he meant a smaller, round hammer stone between the calf and thigh, I wish he would have just said so!  Then we have the whole thing about a notch in the block or a pit in the stone which seems missing from what Ben is doing.

Not that it matters too much.  We have a good, solid, testable idea and room for anyone else to make other interpretations and similarly test.  I do think the overshot thing needs to be tossed. Cushing is talking about what you do with a fairly late stage percussion preform to get that little bit more thinning that is so hard to learn by direct percussion.  Also, since this is happening away from the quarry, we can reasonable say it should be a safer method to get a bit more thinning and shaping, since breaking a biface at the quarry is a small problem, while breaking one away from the quarry is a big problem.   Also, Cushing notes of the percussion preforms, in moving to this method "the smallest of them only were chosen", so it needs to work consistently on small preforms, not take big flakes off spalls or big preforms.  So, that gives us the first round of testing:  Can you do it this way and get consistent, safe, reliable bifacial thinning on small preforms?  If yes, step two is to ask if you can get those same results by some other method that is "better".  You can also take the approach of stripping the system for its parts.  What happens when you take out the round rock?  What happens when you clamp between your legs, under your foot, kneeling on top, held in hand?  What happens when you substitute the application of force with another punch method, pressure or direct percussion?   

On a philosophical note:  I have found that what vastly shortens the learning curve in  --well, everything--  is being wrong, then having someone kind enough to point that out to me and (best case) explain why.  Six months ago if you asked me about heat treating quartzite, I would have said I have thoroughly tested it and found it to be more trouble than it is worth.  A few months ago I expressed that view in the presence of someone who knew otherwise and thankfully he was willing to set me straight.  Having since tested his method, it certainly isn't magic, but works better than I would have thought and it has helped me move the ball a few more yards down the field.  More importantly, I would have never come up with it on my own.

Keith   

Offline turbo

  • Member
  • Posts: 130
Re: Zuma, I got a massive overshot video for you.
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2017, 06:49:57 am »
Hey all, I'm late to the party but have been lurking a while. Ben, thanks for the videos. I have experimented with Jim Winn's 'sandwich' method with good results, which is similar in concept. He adds the hammerstone/weight on top vs the bottom. I think the key to adding the stone is that it adds mass to the piece and facilitates big percussion in later stages. Concerning overshots; I have offered a lot in the past to this discussion and will not rehash for the moment, but the support on the opposite edge is the biggest factor I have found. If you 'jam' the edge firmly into the support it will lend to big overshots, back off and it will feather out.

Another observation; for those of us chasing the methods of the past, I think we need to get off chairs and get down on the ground. Although much remains the same vs sitting in a chair, it does influence methodology some.


AncientTech

  • Guest
Re: Zuma, I got a massive overshot video for you.
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2017, 10:08:15 pm »
We got two more guys in. 

A true overshot - unlike coast to coast - will turn 90 degrees and exit the opposite side of the stone, before reaching the other side.  A coast to coast flake will cut through the other side, but not turn.

This process creates the bend that makes the turn via fulcrum forces.  Jamming against the backside is a small part of the equation.  But, there are bigger parts, with regard to the pressure systems.

All of the people with archaeological backgrounds are immediately eyeing the tools and saying that these are the tools that they find.  Only, they never knew before that such tools could be used in such a manner.

I am currently teaching a Navajo knapper through Facebook.  So, I am actually doing some finished point work, so he can learn.  That being said, I have been very busy everyday communicating with many people.  And, more people are wanting to learn. 

Also, as was expected, some of the people who are learning and who are creating stellar flaking, and stellar overshots, have only been knapping for a few months.  They are new.  They might not understand the implications of what they are making.  And, the old "gurus" - the same people who always want my work banned - will not even speak to many of these new knappers who have done fantastic overshot work, with just brief training. 

So, I have to focus on making sure that these guys are okay.  To give an example, a five year knapper who does stellar work was the second guy to learn the process.  He immediately threw incredible overshots that look exactly like Hogeye cache overshots, with my brief training.  An old guru got on his thread and said, "You are just "wasting" rock."  And, my guy fired back. 

The following day, another old guru told his buddy on a thread that everyone should just try to "ignore" it all.  So, here you have new knappers producing stuff that no one has ever seen IN MODERN HISTORY.  And, maybe they do not even understand it, because they are new.  And, you have old gurus giving them the cold shoulder for it, and refusing to speak to them.  It is sickening.  All of these people to some extent are being put through the stuff I was put through, and by the same people. 

That being said, people are looking at coming back full force, with their flintknapping, because it no longer seems possible that people will even be able to say that "copper is better".  I have new knappers pulling stuff in raw rock that it is doubtful could be done with copper.  And, the actual flaking effects are stellar.  I already have collectors writing and saying that they believe I found the way certain paleo-flaking was actually done.  And, we are not just talking about "visuals".  Visuals are superficial, and finished points can lie.  The way a finished point can lie is that the maker can hide the marks of what he did previously.  So, we are openly achieving affects in raw stone, and other materials, that have not been seen before.

As for the "sandwich" method, the associates of Cushing's wrote "clamped under the knee".  So, it was there all along, as recorded by someone who studied the indians, back in the 19th century.

More people are contacting me.  Gotta go....

Best of luck,

Look up KnapYucatan on Facebook.   

Ben

Offline Zuma

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,324
Re: Zuma, I got a massive overshot video for you.
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2017, 09:24:52 am »
The bottom line here Ben is that many have deceived others and perpetuated a
sad myth about the ancient phenomena  of OVERSHOT. :'( :'(
While you and others attempt to exploit the Clovis name there are folks like me around
doing the real fact checking.  O:)
The major fact in my opinion and the opinion of many that you assume are your
 detractors is OVERSHOT is nothing more than a natural part of lithic reduction.  ??? ???
That part being recorded in flake count and interpretation by folks that shut down the
 Clovis/ Solutrean connection by exposing it's fallacies. :-K :-K
Not to mention there stead fast opinions that OVERSHOT is nothing more than a
normal MISTAKE through out knapping history. Not a method of dire importance.
Thank you for admitting to the fact that you contrived the Clovis connection with your
work to attract attention to yourself. I hope you soon make a similar admission on
your facebook page and other writings. Cushing's work just does not make a convincing
stretch back to ancient knapping practices. That story is yet untold.
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

AncientTech

  • Guest
Re: Zuma, I got a massive overshot video for you.
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2017, 09:35:24 am »
You are mistaken.  The technology can be used to create many different kinds of flaking.  But, I know that knappers will look into it more quickly if they see the overshot aspect. 

Hyperbole - Modern knappers say they make "Clovis" points, right?  So, I am saying that we are making "Clovis" flaking.  Are we the Clovis people?  Obviously not.  So, we are not saying anything different than what modern knappers say everday.  And, it is actually a nice form of hyperbole.  Everytime an overshot is made, we can call it "Clovis", just as they call copper percussion points Clovis.

Fact Checking - You can do all the fact checking you want.  But, people who spent years in archaeological field work have stated up front that the tools being used are the closest thing to the real McCoy ever seen, when modified deer tines are used.  I heard this from three people with archaeological backgrounds in a week.  I also heard it from collectors.

Solutrean - I do not believe in a Soutrean-Clovis connection.  I have never said that A came from B, as others have done.  You are talking to the wrong person.  I also study genetics, as a hobby.  I am well acquainted with New World haplotypes, and do not think that "boating from Europe" is a viable explanation.

Also, I do not need "attention".  I already experienced my successes in life.  I do not need the approval from anyone, so long as I know that I am sticking to facts.  Actually, I do not even like interacting with flintknappers, after all the grief that was dished out in 2010, 2011, 2012, and on.  But, it looks like competent people are taking this seriously.  And, they always tell me, "Who gives a s--t about flintknappers?!"  And, my answer is that the world needs them because they have the best shot - but not when it is based on ignorance, and stubborn denial of evidence.  Now, I have ten trained guys.

Whatever you say about Cushing is a matter or presumption.  I did my homework.  And, others did not.

Have a great day!! :)

 

Offline Zuma

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,324
Re: Zuma, I got a massive overshot video for you.
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2017, 10:12:26 am »
Oh well :-\
Have a Happy New Year!
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline aaron

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,037
Re: Zuma, I got a massive overshot video for you.
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2017, 10:20:57 am »
this thread is going downhill fast- too much arguing and anger. Besides the unanswered questions above, one more:
What is it about "cushng overshots" that is differet from regular baton overshots/ coast-to-coast.THey look the same to me. I do them with a baton all the time.see below- billet flake in Danish flint. obsidian preform- about 8:1 width to thickness ratio, shown with a drawing of a Fenn Cache preform.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 10:39:56 am by aaron »
Ilwaco, Washington, USA
"Good wood makes great bows, but bad wood makes great bowyers"

AncientTech

  • Guest
Re: Zuma, I got a massive overshot video for you.
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2018, 07:12:12 am »
this thread is going downhill fast- too much arguing and anger. Besides the unanswered questions above, one more:
What is it about "cushng overshots" that is differet from regular baton overshots/ coast-to-coast.THey look the same to me. I do them with a baton all the time.see below- billet flake in Danish flint. obsidian preform- about 8:1 width to thickness ratio, shown with a drawing of a Fenn Cache preform.

It is not about visuals.  Visuals can be like smoke and mirrors.  Finished points can lie.  Last stages can hide what was shown in previous stages. 

In terms of authentic processes, what I am showing is an authentic process that has been on the books since the late 19th century.  And, it covers all forms of flaking, not just overshot.  The antler baton method was invented in England around 1940.  The first experiments ever carried out were documented by Knowles in a paper called "Stoneworker's Progress".  Cushing did not invent a new flintknapping method in a laboratory.  He was an anthropologist and made an exact record of processes used by Native Americans, in the western US.  So, in terms of authenticity, there is a big difference.  And, that is what people in Europe, and people in South America, and people in China, and people outside of the US knapping circles instantly recognize.  By the way, I am going to have to assume that moose antler billets are not going to fit inside half inch wide recessed platforms. 


Offline aaron

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,037
Re: Zuma, I got a massive overshot video for you.
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2018, 10:18:33 am »
darn it, you had me excited. I thought you were going to answer my questions from Dec. 29. All I got from this response was that the difference between these cushing flakes and regular baton flakes is that they are instantly recognizable if you are not from USA.
Ilwaco, Washington, USA
"Good wood makes great bows, but bad wood makes great bowyers"

Offline Zuma

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,324
Re: Zuma, I got a massive overshot video for you.
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2018, 01:09:22 pm »
darn it, you had me excited. I thought you were going to answer my questions from Dec. 29. All I got from this response was that the difference between these cushing flakes and regular baton flakes is that they are instantly recognizable if you are not from USA.
Nothing new here. ??? What would be novel is Ben showing his adoring audience photographs of Paleo through historic flakes that exhibit Cushing's ear marked techniques. O:) Since he is so close to so many archies he should have easy access to this info. Not likely in my opinion.   )-w(
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline seminolewind

  • Member
  • Posts: 659
Re: Zuma, I got a massive overshot video for you.
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2018, 12:46:20 pm »
Good God, this Ben guy made it into this group too !?!

Let me know when he gets kicked out of here like he has the rest. Knap on !
"Those that beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who do not." Thomas Jefferson

Elijah,
Tampa, FL.

Offline Bryce

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 3,125
  • Pacific Ghost Longbows
Re: Zuma, I got a massive overshot video for you.
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2018, 03:52:15 pm »
I can’t figure out why he keeps talking to himself.....
Clatskanie, Oregon

Offline caveman2533

  • Member
  • Posts: 640
  • Steve Nissly
Re: Zuma, I got a massive overshot video for you.
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2018, 10:54:09 pm »
Shouldn't he be posting this stuff  on the Abo board