Handshock

[George Tsoukalas]

Badger, funny you said say this.
" Something I have noticed here is that all the guys discussing this topic here are pretty well rounded bowyers."
One of the other sites I frequent had a thread on old pictures. Damn was I skinny.
Jawge the Well Rounded

[George Tsoukalas]

Pat said,
"I just want to say that I know Marc and Jawge are getting old because they have this same discussion every couple of years."
Marc is not getting old.
Jawge

[George Tsoukalas]

"Personally I have a bit of a burr up my behind also but it's from people that seem to have this thing about "primitive". "
Speaking of burs up behinds - just a reminder that anyone over 50 should be thinking about getting  a colonoscopy. Nu'in to it.  I love you guys. Take care of yourselves. Jawge

[George Tsoukalas]

Here's my pet peeve.Ny now it's no secret that I wear my Greek ancestry on my sleeve  for all to see. I can't stand how people pronounce "feta" cheese. Even though those of Greek ancestry. It's not fetttah. It's feta. Sheesh! Jawge

[George Tsoukalas]

BTW I'm feeling the urge to build Joni another bow for this year's shoots.  She is shooting a board bow. We travel a lot to go to some. It would be nice for her to have a bow from a log stave. We may be going to a shoot in Grayson, KY. Denton too. Lord willing. I will critically analyze this timing issue as I build her bow. May be I'll report back on it. Jawge

[George Tsoukalas]

Gotta go. One more thing. IMHO. The bow with zero hand shock has never been built nor will it ever be. Jawge

[Kviljo]

Marc, a yumi probably have quite a bit handshock due to different return speeds of the limbs, but this is probably not the whole story about handshock, and a yumi might have other caracteristics that skew the picture regarding this one reason for handshock.

George, if you let it down slowly, there is no way the limbs would not reach the braced position at the same time, regardless of wether it pivots

Justin: Looking forward to hearing your experimental testing results

[DCM]

If let down quickly, what changes whether the limbs return at the same time, assuming the bow is still free to pivot as in the other scenario?

Colonoscopy is a pita because you have to fast, then purge with strong laxatives the day before.  Otherwise it's like take a 20 minute nap, get dressed and go home.  Compared to the alternative, it's a small price to pay.  I'd encourage folks to research and follow the recommended check-up and monitoring for all kinds of disease.  If not, the grim reaper has you on his list, and it's just a matter of time until he gets to your name.  I'm 5 weeks post-op after colon re-section to remove cancer (at age 46), looking forward to 5 weeks of radiation/chemo, then another 24 weeks of just chemo.  With 90% 5 year survival rate I'm not worried, but sure as hell reformed from the "if I don't go to the doctor I won't get sick" attitude I've had all my life up until now.  Had I reacted earlier, to symptoms which probably would have been detected with a yearly physical exam, it would have meant another 20 minutes during the colonoscopy to remove "polyps" and then on with my life.  Sorry for the hi-jack, just a topic too close to home for me to let it go by.

Having a burr up your butt is not correctable by any surgery or treatment I'm aware of, and unfortunately the patient typcially has no realization it's such a pita for everyone else.

[Kviljo]

The difference could be explained by visualizing a bow beeing dryfired. Then there is almost no resistance slowing the limbs down, which will make it possible for the faster limb to return before the other. As you add up arrow weight, the resistance won't allow the faster limb to use it's extra effectiveness to return as fast. It's perhaps a bit the same like comparing two bows that have the same F/D-curve, but with different effectivity. They will shoot a heavy arrow quite the same, but not a light arrow.

Same thing with a bow that have limbs with different effectivity. The limbs will act quite the same with a heavy arrow/just letting it down, but not with a light arrow/dry fireing. The more efficient limb will return faster.


Was that understandable? My language is perhaps not the best, so bear with me

[DanaM]

Interesting thread guys, I can't add anything useful to your discussion but I am reading it and maybe learning a thing or two in the process

As for the primitive thing, for me its like going to a buffet, somedays I just want a salad but the next day I want the ribs.
Same with bows oneday I make a simple bendy handle grease smeared bow, the next I make a gussied up pretty bow, haven't gotten
into laminated bows yet but someday I will. I do use Steve's Mass formula, very useful tool, just like my bandsaw is useful. My last bow
The mass formula isn't a foolproof method to make a bow but it is a very useful tool to set guidelines and the more I understand it,
the more useful it will become. I like these discussions on advanced bow building 101, always something new to learn as long as ya keep yer mind open
to the knowledge. I'm still happy when I get a shooter by whatever means 

[Justin Snyder]

Gotta go. One more thing. IMHO. The bow with zero hand shock has never been built nor will it ever be. Jawge

But we can sure get closer by examining these topics than ignoring them (even if they are uncomfortable). We may have a different approach to our thinking, but I am sure the "primitive people" discussed what would make a better more efficient bow.  Hand shock isn't just uncomfortable, it is wasting energy that should have gone into the arrow. 

George, colonoscopy... good advice.  I lost a good friend to colon cancer last year that may have lived if he had a colonoscopy.  He was only 32. Every 5 years before 50 every 2 after.   Justin

[Marc St Louis]

Have you guys ever watched the serious target shooters shoot their bows? The bow always pivots in the hand on release and it always pivots down. What does that tell you?

Sorry guys but this whole idea of limb timing just doesn't hold water to me but that is me and my bows. Maybe others have a hard time with tillering and "timing"

[DCM]

Interesting topic.  Not sure what I believe, or how to express it actually.  I think we've all had the experience of tinkering with a bow's tiller with trial and error until the handshock is mitigated.  I'd always assumed what was changing was the "limb timing" and to a lesser extent limb mass but I'm open to the idea it is some other factor, or better described using some other terms.

Kviljo,

Yes, understood.  Thanks for repeating.  It's not so much the time element as it is the bow and arrow being free to return unimpeded.

[Justin Snyder]

Have you guys ever watched the serious target shooters shoot their bows? The bow always pivots in the hand on release and it always pivots down. What does that tell you?

Never seen one pivot. All I have seen hold it so loose that it falls after the tension is gone, but that is entirely different than pivoting. That is a style of gripping to prevent the archer from torquing the bow, has nothing to do with tiller or handshock or the bow for that matter.  It is the same for the wheel bow guys also. Justin

[Marc St Louis]

Justin
I've seen several videos of professional target shooters and olympic target shooters where the bow pivots on release. The bow always pivots down