Author Topic: Bow Index vs Ipe  (Read 13929 times)

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Offline Ballasted_Bowyer

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Bow Index vs Ipe
« on: April 02, 2017, 12:05:10 am »
http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/bow-woods/

I have made a few bows with Ipe. They worked for a while but then split as I did not follow the growth ring. Recently I came into a huge piece of Moso and had another go at Ipe with a thick Moso bamboo backing. This bow has less than two inches set and pulls 61lbs at 28 inches. Also put the arrow deep into both layers of sheet rock between rooms. A hem, What I mean to be pointing out is that in spite of the fact that it seems to have worked, I would also say the limbs are HEAVY even though I used a pyramid style tiller all the way to narrow nocks. I looked up the MOE/MOR ratio on Ipe and it is decidedly worse than basically any other common bow wood in North America and on the far side from Yew or Osage. And yet, I have seen some reports on the inter-webs that the stuff is awesome for bows. Is it? Or perhaps with a good backing its just strong enough in compression to be forgiving? I guess, what I really want to know is if those who both shoot well and make good bows think its an excellent choice of material compared to other common woods excluding yew or osage?

Acts 10:12-13  "It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. Then a voice told him, 'Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.'"

Offline PatM

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Re: Bow Index vs Ipe
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2017, 12:11:02 am »
When using a backing you count both materials.

Offline Ballasted_Bowyer

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Re: Bow Index vs Ipe
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2017, 12:18:21 am »
Pat, Just to make sure I understand, In this case the Ipe having a higher MOE than Moso Bamboo, and they are at similar thickness most of the length of the bow, the bamboo is stretching more than the Ipe is compressing which masks its low index? I also noticed bamboo has a low index as well by the method shown in the link, but it is light for its MOE.
Acts 10:12-13  "It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. Then a voice told him, 'Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.'"

Offline bubby

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Re: Bow Index vs Ipe
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2017, 02:52:47 pm »
I use boo backers the same on all bows, i get the boo about as thin as i can, almost a knife edge, epe is a very good bow wood, but some of the quality is declining
failure is an option, everyone fails, it's how you handle it that matters.
The few the proud the 27🏹

Offline Badger

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Re: Bow Index vs Ipe
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2017, 06:36:33 pm »
    I don't believe that bamboo will stretch much at all. I could be wrong of course but not many wood like natural fibers have much stretch to them. The bamboo does seem to stand up well to ipe as far as not fracturing.

Offline willie

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Re: Bow Index vs Ipe
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2017, 06:53:54 pm »
if bamboo has been shown to be a good combo with ipe, isn't it because of what stretching it does? If the work in an Ipe bow is all about compression, than we might as well back with steel (not really suggesting this) but just wondering if the back designs make more of a difference than we often give credit for? maybe not just what , but how much?

that database should definitely take a back seat to (some) of what you can read here at PA, IMO
 

Offline PatM

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Re: Bow Index vs Ipe
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2017, 07:25:29 pm »
No. Bamboo doesn't stretch . That's what makes it a good backing for Ipe. It forces the wood belly to store energy in compresssion and the wood can take it.

Offline gfugal

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Re: Bow Index vs Ipe
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2017, 08:53:04 pm »
Bamboo is stiffer than ipe? I have a hard time believing that. According to the data ipe is stiffer than most bone. I think the reason bamboo is so good as a backing is because it can handle the stress put on it from the stiff belly. If it's on the back then its under tension. Tension is stretching by definition, it just doesn't stretch much (less than 1%) but it does for sure.
Greg,
No risk, no gain. Expand the mold and try new things.

Offline gfugal

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Re: Bow Index vs Ipe
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2017, 09:21:31 pm »
From what i could gather https://www.guaduabamboo.com/guadua/comparing-mechanical-properties-of-bamboo-guadua-vs-moso the stiffness (MOE) of moso bamboo is around 8 Gpa. According to the wood database Ipe has a stiffness of 22 Gpa (approaching 3 times as stiff but not as quite). but the rupture point (MOR) for the bamboo is greater than 100 Mpa mybe 110 Mba. That's a bow index close to 13 which is higher than pretty much anywood. Much higher than th 8 of ipe. This means it can handle tension and bend (stretch) much further than most, particularily ipe, making it a great backing.
Greg,
No risk, no gain. Expand the mold and try new things.

Offline PatM

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Re: Bow Index vs Ipe
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2017, 09:24:24 pm »
The very outer portion of bamboo is extremely dense. That's the part that matters in this context because it's the only part used.

Tonkin is denser than Ipe.

Offline bubby

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Re: Bow Index vs Ipe
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2017, 09:26:43 pm »
Personally i don't care about a data base, i know boo which is a grass, has fibers that run from end to end, is a pain to flatten by hand, and is a great backer material, and epe doesn't really like to bend and wants to return to its original shape as soon as possible, seems like a good combo. Once again most of those data bases were not made with the end result bows
failure is an option, everyone fails, it's how you handle it that matters.
The few the proud the 27🏹

Offline gfugal

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Re: Bow Index vs Ipe
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2017, 09:48:27 pm »
The very outer portion of bamboo is extremely dense. That's the part that matters in this context because it's the only part used.

Tonkin is denser than Ipe.
Looks like bamboo can very just as much or more than wood, depending on species. Since the post was originally about moso i looked that up. It is not stiffer, but maybe the outer portion may be? I haven't found data for that but i'll go off your word. I tried searching for Tonkin and it brought me to this paleo discussion http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/reply/387096/Different-bamboo-species. Aparently tonkin is very stiff! Greater than ipe with a MOE around 40 Gpa. This really surprised me. But moso may or may not be. Either way bamboo should be able to handle being the back more than ipe by its self. This was never being debated.

Bubby your right in that data won't make a bow for you. You can still make excellent bows with no data, the ancients did it all the time. Knowing and understanding the data however can't hurt things as long as your still out there building and not just theorizing. True that it might not be the best representation of the actual properties but its what we have to make conclusions.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 09:51:45 pm by gfugal »
Greg,
No risk, no gain. Expand the mold and try new things.

Offline PatM

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Re: Bow Index vs Ipe
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2017, 10:22:38 pm »
Moso definitely has a very low proportion of power fibers.You'd have to test that minimal portion separately.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 07:36:57 am by PatM »

Offline bubby

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Re: Bow Index vs Ipe
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2017, 01:19:35 am »
Tim Bakers bow woods list has info on more differant woods than most guys will ever use, i reference  that when i have to
failure is an option, everyone fails, it's how you handle it that matters.
The few the proud the 27🏹

Offline joachimM

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Re: Bow Index vs Ipe
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2017, 05:48:50 am »
Despite what people say:
bamboo does stretch in tension on the back of a bow... Just test it.

The bow index of the wood database only indicates that the "good woods" have a low MOE and a high MOR for its density. And preferrably both in tension and compression.

In an ideal world, we want bow woods with high MOE and high MOR: stiff woods that still bend very far. Bamboo species are in that category (have data for Moso and Guadua bamboo to back this statement), at least in tension. They are crap in compression (unless heavily toasted, and with the dense outer layer on the belly too, like in split cane fishing rods).

For real wood species, there's a trade-off between stiffness (MOE) and elasticity (MOR), the combination of which determines how much energy a wood can store in bending. Basically, there's pretty little variation among energy storage capacity among all wood species, because of this trade-off. That brings us back to the findings of Comstock and Baker in their archery books: any wood allows you to make a bow, you just have to adapt the design to the wood properties and your own (MC) conditions.

Low-stiffness woods (relative to their density!) are just easier to turn into bows (more tolerant to tiny mistakes) and are likely also more stable in their tiller towards MC changes.

So that's why we use bamboo as a backing. Ipe is very dense and stiff wood, with just above average compression properties for its density. This makes it a good partner for bamboo. Osage and yew are less stiff, but better in compression. Net energy storage capacity will be similar, but requiring a different design.

J

« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 06:06:01 am by joachimM »