Do we have any engineers in the house?

[Badger]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ir5GKAQG14g

At about 1:20 min in this video Mike is shooting the longbow. Right after he released you can see the nock end of the arrow drop a bit. At the same time the bow rotates counter clockwise(top come back) a bit. Is this what we are talking about?

  Yep, thats exactly what I am talking about, you can see the yumi bow does not do that.

[George Tsoukalas]

Agreed.

The best tiller for the bow is not always the picture perfect, photo op tiller.
For example, knots should appear slightly flatter than the rest of the limb.
Yes, the bow needs to be balanced at full draw and on release (limb timing) all of which includes the nock point and where the arrow pass is located..

Disagree.

You are holding the bow and need to account for that in your tillering. Heeling vs high wrist should be different tillers.

Why would you discount that ?

Jawge

[SLIMBOB]

I agree Jawge.  Bow hand position was always known to be critical on wheelie bows with over draws and short lite arrows. It's never mattered as much for me on wood bows but I always just figured it was because the dynamics are so much less mechanical, and so less critical, but still of some importance.  Still may not address Steve's overall point though.

[Badger]

Agreed.

The best tiller for the bow is not always the picture perfect, photo op tiller.
For example, knots should appear slightly flatter than the rest of the limb.
Yes, the bow needs to be balanced at full draw and on release (limb timing) all of which includes the nock point and where the arrow pass is located..

Disagree.

You are holding the bow and need to account for that in your tillering. Heeling vs high wrist should be different tillers.

Why would you discount that ?

Jawge

  Jawge, are you suggesting that the bow returns in the same path it was drawn?

[PatM]

I don't see how a bow can remember what happened on the draw and return in the reverse and mirror the same movements.

[KS51]

A bow can't "remember" what happened on the draw.  However, force will always follow the path of least resistance and arguably (very arguably) the relatively slow (static) path of the draw is equivalent to the fast (dynamic) path of the release.  When I say path, I mean both the physical movement as well as the force flow.

Ken

[George Tsoukalas]

Badger,  no, just saying how you hold it affects how you tiller it... or should.
I guess I don't understand your point.
Jawge

[bradsmith2010]

Badger, I will say you are very creative,, to come up with such a fresh topic or something new to "discuss"  creativity is indeed infinite,,  ,,,

[Badger]

Badger, I will say you are very creative,, to come up with such a fresh topic or something new to "discuss"  creativity is indeed infinite,,  ,,,

  LOL, I think you nailed it Brad!!

[DC]

I would think that if you built a machine that held the handle in a free swivel and pulled the string in a straight line that the release path would mirror the draw path. The swivelling handle would let the bow line itself up with the draw point. There would be no pulling up or down.

[Badger]

 Jawge, I think a lot of folks are not understanding. I will try to make it simple. If you expect the arrow to travel in a level straight line through the shelf during the shot then you would need to tiller the bow using your hook placed right whee the arrow nock would be and the bow supported right at the arrow rest. When you drew the bow it would show slightly out of tiller but once you dropped the string it would go back to perfect tiller. Obviously this is not important for a good shooting bow but when people get to explaining the reasons for tillering for the way they hold and draw the bow I believe they are misrepresenting how the arrow returns.

[George Tsoukalas]

LOL, why didn't you say that. Several people on here tiller that way.
Badger, if you tillered it like that why would it appear out of tiller ever on the draw or on the release?
If you remember, last night  on a post I mentioned that I finish tiller while drawing (digi pic) to sharpen up the tiller. Nothing approximates the way you hold the bow.
I'm probably still not understanding.
Jawge

[Marc St Louis]

I believe I know what you mean Steve although I don't really know the answer.  I would think that the arrow could tell you whether or not it is being shot properly in relation to how the bow is tillered by how it behaves during the shot

[Badger]

I believe I know what you mean Steve although I don't really know the answer.  I would think that the arrow could tell you whether or not it is being shot properly in relation to how the bow is tillered by how it behaves during the shot

 Mark, I think the point is that it is not all that critical as some would have us believe, that's why we adjust our nocking point. I think on my flight bows I am going to start tillering them from the arrow rest to the nocking point. Bows will always need a good tiller but their is a range of places in the middle that will work fine.

[Dances with squirrels]

Badger, in order to get the arrow to travel perfectly straight past the arrow rest (no porpoising up or down) you don't need to tiller the bow supporting it at the arrow rest, while pulling the string from where the arrow nock will be. In fact, that would ensure that it DIDN'T fly as well as it could have, had you tillered it while mimicking your own holds on both the bow and string.

If we do mimic our shooting idioms while balancing relative limb strength, we won't ever have to move the nock point to make up for limb strength imbalance. I set my nock point where I decided it would be before I even started the bow, and arrows fly perfect from shot #1.

You're right, bows don't have to be tillered perfectly to shoot 'ok', and sometimes folks have to adjust nock height to adjust limb balance, and they can make ammends. But the farther we stray from optimum, the harder bows are to tune, and the more harsh they are to the shooter and arrow flight. Conversely, the closer they are to optimum, the more inherently tuned they are, the softer they shoot, the quieter they are, the better the tiller holds, etc. You know, all the good qualities bowyers claim to strive for