Asking a silly tiller question...

[cadet]

I've long believed that the only stupid question is the one you don't ask; I've been puzzling over this one for a while and couldn't, at a cursory glance, find an answer, and suspect there's no one or easy answer:
Assuming the arrow pass and nocking point are square to each other (I know, not always or necessarily the case), should the arrow pass and nocking point be dead centre between the tips/nocks, or should they be a little offset above centre to let the bow hand hold the stave in the middle?  If so, are we tillering off where the arrow will pass, or where the hand will hold?  And are we pulling the string on the tiller where the arrow would nock, or from the centre - if the arrow will be nocked above centre to account for a bow hand offset?  I'm guessing ideas on neutral or positive tiller come into play here too...
Does my question even make sense?!

[Pappy]

I always line up the arrow pass, at least close to where I think it will be while it is on the tiller tree. Not dead center of the bow.
 Pappy

[BowEd]

I've always tillered from the center of bow with the arrow pass about 1.5" above that without any problems.With about a 1/8" positive tiller.

[Hrothgar]

Good question. Most of my bows are off the knuckle shooters, but regardless, I just try to keep the arrow perpendicular to the grip/hand at full draw.

[Pat B]

I put the center of the handle in the center of the bow and my nocking point is about 3/8" above horizontal and I nock the arrow on top of that.

[George Tsoukalas]

There are a few different ways to do it. These days I measure 2 inches on either side of center and put the arrow pass 1.25 inches above center. That can vary depending on tiller.

I tiller from the center to full draw and finish the tiller while I draw the bow using a digi pic.

My preference is bottom limb around 1/4" stronger at full draw.

Jawge

[stuckinthemud]

What is positive tiller?

[huisme]

If the top limb bends more than the bottom its positive, the opposite is negative. Positive tiller is meant to more evenly apply force to the arrow by having the limb farther from the knocking point stronger than the one closest to the knocking point, and it sure seems to work for me

[bradsmith2010]

I pretty do mine like Jawge,,
if I am shooting off the knuckle ,, I hold the bow where it feels balanced in my hand,, and I nock the arrow a little high,, from the arrow pass,, if that does not work, then I adjust" accordingly"

[Badger]

      The only thing I measure is the center of the handle to the center of the bow, May arrow pass usually end up about 2 1/4" above center. I tiller so the arrow draws straight back at full draw with my hook just on the lower side of the nocking point of the arrow.

     I might be alone on this but I believe that the bow forgets all about how you hold it when you draw it back and only knows where the arrow is sitting durring the power stroke. I make sure the limbs are low enough on stress not to be affected by an uneven tiller at full draw with the fingers where ever the archer decides to put them.

[Dances with squirrels]

I set the bow center 3/4" above the handle center... and the shelf/top of the handle is 2" above handle center, which makes it 1 1/4" above bow center.

I support it on the tree the way I support it by hand and draw the string from exactly where I draw it with my string hand. This allows the tillering tree to impart the same strains on the limbs as I will drawing the bow by hand. I draw a line on the wall, perpendicular to the shelf, which simulates the arrow nock's travel when limbs are balanced in strength, relative to the holds on bow and string. This is figuring for 3/8" to the bottom of the nock point, and arrow nocked underneath it... 3/8" above the shelf is exactly where I put the nock point on the string when the bow is finished.

When drawing the bow on the tree, the nock will be drawn toward the stronger limb because it flexes/moves less, and it is weakened until the nock follows the line down the wall. When it follows the line down the wall to full draw, limbs are sync'd.

[cadet]

Thanks for your thoughts, folks.

I like that theory about the bow not really caring much where the hand is once the string is loosed with an arrow on it, it intuitively makes some sense to me; but then it may be like rifles and be of critical importance where the pressure is applied... hmm: thinking about it in that context, I guess the forces as applied by the bow hand - being the last and only point of contact with the shooter - and the nocking point - being the last thing the arrow touches before the target - must be of some importance, like the trigger and the muzzle on a rifle.

Like a lot of things in life, it seems the more you learn, the more you find there is to learn.

[Del the cat]

There is no "should"...
They are generally about 1" or so above centre BUT... one of my nicest shooting bows has the lower limb 3" longer than the upper (not by design, I was just making it on the fly! and it took several years before I even noticed!) look at the Japanese Yumi bows too.
It's all about how you tiller it.
After all you can put a string on a virtually un-shaped sapling and shoot it, but you'll have to experiment to fing where the grip is and it won't be at the centre.
Del

[riverrat]

its all in how you tiller it. i tiller mine dead center. i nock my arrow about a inch up from there. to be honest, i start there then shoot it several times. wherever my arrow flys straight from with no up or down stuff going on with the end of the arrow while its flying { i call this spot the sweet spot} thats my nocking point from then on.Tony

[Dances with squirrels]

I think we should be able to design and tiller the bow in such a way that we can put the sweet spot, AND balance the bow, precisely where we want.

A concern I have is that regardless of a bow's design, performance, or shooting characteristics, I don't think we'll really know what it's capable of unless its relative limb balance is optimal for the shooter. Following that, so many of us do it differently, have different, even opposing goals and gauges regarding tiller, how is one to know what's best? If I knew for a fact I could do it better, and someone could explain it adequately, I'd change how I do it in a heartbeat. But I have to say, after reading through these posts, and in fact almost 20 years worth of message boards, videos, books, magazine articles, and conversations in person, I usually end up feeling a little confused or unsure, even that the 'instrctors' were unsure, and in the end, like I was on my own.... figure it out yourself. Which I've been working on for almost 20 years :^)