IMO Folks that let Condors eat lead are Reprehensible

[Zuma]

Let's hear it folks
Zuma


Reprehensible | Define Reprehensible at Dictionary.com
dictionary.reference.com/browse/reprehensible - Similarto Reprehensible | Define Reprehensible at Dictionary.com
Reprehensible definition, deserving of reproof, rebuke, or censure; blameworthy. See more.

[willie]

I guess if those folks did it knowingly, they should be held to account. what do you think should be done about them?

then there are the folks that left lead behind in their activities, and did not know they were feeding the birds. Perhaps a different solution?

willie

[Zuma]

I guess if those folks did it knowingly, they should be held to account. what do you think should be done about them?

then there are the folks that left lead behind in their activities, and did not know they were feeding the birds. Perhaps a different solution?

willie

See if I can answer both questions.
I see no good in any kind of retribution actually.
It is awareness of the situation I hope that will help the
Condors in the long run.
You see this Condor program has a pretty long history of setting
the birds out into a toxic environment. And they are totally aware of it.
The bird friendly solution IMO would be to-- keep the Condors out of
harms way until the problem is solved. Citizens can help by notifying their
Congressional and Senate Representatives to get the lead banned.
But there will be opposition to a total ban. Better to outlaw lead for
hunting only. I am not sure how all these procedures work.??
And I have no idea how long the Condors could be kept on ice??
I don't remember any data that was collected from other possibilities.
Like natural or man mad contaminants other than bullet like lead in the
birds blood. Perhaps checking all other possibilities would give researcher
something to do while the birds are not needing so much attention.
Long winded I know but it is not a problem easily solved imo.
Thanks for being concerned.
Zuma

[JoJoDapyro]

Why was there a need for a second thread?

[Zuma]

Why was there a need for a second thread?

Jojo

Better way to show the abuse the birds are suffering
instead of endless posts that are doing nothing but
irritating members on the other thread.
Do you think subjecting these creatures to suffering and
death is a good thing? Please let us know.
Zuma

[Ed Brooks]

But, here's a study with an xray showing a bird that was shot. but in the study they don't believe it was the shot that poisoned the bird it was what he ate? WTH? kinda like the elk i shot must have died from eating grass that had a bullet lying next to it? the hole in it had nothing to do with it?  just goes to show if you don't find what you want in your study, you can just claim what you think?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unleashed/2009/04/second-california-condor-found-to-be-shot-reward-offered-for-information.html   

[willie]

I was not thinking of retribution either, when I suggested accountability. If the intent of the program is/was to reestablish the wild population, then doesn't that has to be tried as part of the original mission? I found this short history of the conservation efforts undertaken that points out some of the complexities and just how far we have come since those efforts began.

http://web.stanford.edu/group/stanfordbirds/text/essays/Conservation_Condor.html

the last I heard, there are still no hunting signs posted at national parks, so at least the condors still have that sanctuary, Is part of the difficulty, that the birds prefer scavenging over hunting, so even with protected huntable feed in the park, they prefer to scavenge outside the park?
 
When you mention senators and congressman being of  possible assistance with lead bans,
I hope you are referring to some of the southwestern states changing their hunting regs to mandate non lead bullets for big game hunting. You have already alluded to the difficulties of a federal mandate. Perhaps it would be "too little, too late" for the condors, especially as the white house is already outspoken on ammunition restrictions.

Are there condors still being kept in breeding programs currently? If so, I would be curious to know how many of the total population are in captivity and how many are in the wild.

[Zuma]

Gosh that's to bad Ed What a shame
Yes or no about the reprehensible?

"From the Mercury News"   

$31,000 reward?
A thought-- what if the bird was on the ground suffering
from lead poisoning and someone put it out of it's misery.
I wonder what I would if I was ignorant of the law and didn't
 really know what kind of bird it was?
I don't think they said the #2 bird had poisoning.

[Zuma]

Willie
It's really just a yes or no thing.
Your thread is worth the read but not much new in it.
I really suggest you read my last or next to last post
on that other thread. It should have every thing you
are looking for. If you can't download the peer review
file alot of it is right there now. Pm me if you want the
rest of it.
Zuma

[willie]

Zuma

I realize that the link is not very extensive, but I was hoping that those who read it might care see the progress that has been made in the past 40 years.

It's really just a yes or no thing.

and some might see it as a "half full or half empty thing"


I have taken a moment to read your other post, and I am not sure why you think that

 

It should have every thing you are looking for

 I have not questioned the research presented in the two threads.   but I have been accused of doing so with a strawman argument and quoted out of context.(in the other thread)

[Zuma]

If they (others) think in terms of I can't make up my mind, well let them post that.
I guess your on the fence. Because of? Some 40 years of sending Condors to their demise?
Do you know how many birds have died of lead poising since the handlers were made aware of the problem? And how many died remote and were never found.
Did you read where the peer review states emphatically that if the program continues the way it is structured that success is unlikely?
Zuma

[willie]

Zuma-
perhaps you have not heard the half full/half empty analogy before? It is not about indecision, it is about perspective.    winning/losing      optimism/pessimism  etc...

 
I am not undecided,  but I am on the fence in another way, Too cynical to think that top down solutions really work well and a bit too tired and old to become passionate about a bird. I have my doubts about anything changing too soon. There's more to government service than practical results. The managers might want promotions and recognition. and they don't care if they have to obfuscate poor performance. Alls they have to do is put a pretty face on the public side. The program might work better someday, after all, it was there when they got there, and  alls they have to do is make sure that it's still there there when they leave. They can't change the plan now, that would be a failure on their watch.

 the wheels do turn slowly, but you have an uphill fight

[Zuma]

Of course Willie
But if folks start to understand it they may just try to change it.
My glass is always half full.  :)Remember no politics here 
Maybe PETA folks will read this
Zuma

[JoJoDapyro]

We really can't go through life with an all or nothing attitude. How would doctors keep going. They do lose people from time to time. How many people try knapping once and quit? What if everyone that had a bad day knapping just up and stopped? There is a learning curve to everything. Walking, Running, Swimming, Making cookies, Shooting, building boats and bows and homes. If everyone quit because they didn't win every battle we would be dead. What is the survival of a species worth? It is plain to see that the reintroduction of wolves has done a lot.

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

I think folks who start TWO threads with the intention of trolling the members should probably reexamine how they entertain themselves...