Native American Projectile Evolution

[mullet]

Don, my take on them is they are very refined, especially the Coral points and worth a lot of money. That's why I hunt artifacts, pays for hunting trips and toys.

Bob, next time you talk to Dr. Gramly ask him if he remembers my De Soto era bracelet he appraised and wrote an article about.

[ekalavya]

Try to knap a broadhead for a blow gun dart .....

until now i have seen no precolumbian blow gun darts with a broadhead ...

there are those microlith arrows , were the microliths or just small flakes are fixed
with birch tar ....  that can not be that the simple microliths came after the really hard worked
arrowheads ..... rather the hard worked arrowheads are more durable and that is why they
are preserved for such a long time ...

long serated stone blades , large well worked points seem to me like some kind of prestige
for the owner or maker than a necessity .... just a fiat 500 would do , but you want a ferrari

Can a well worked broadhead be deadly with a bow with less draw weight?

I read 45 lb are enough for killing a deer .... if you have dogs the hog runs into the spear ....
ever made any draw weight assumptions for an atlatl ?

there are even "bow traps" .... there is the "bolla" (with three stones tight on a rope) to block or
coil around the games legs .... there is even arrow poison which even reduces the necessity
of long heavy bows to ell long kid sized bows which draw merely to the elbow / arm joint ...

there is the known musket or flint or rifle bullet which is practically a lead ball .... well, also
a projectile (compact in size and dimensions) and similar to what was used much earlier
in primitive slings ...

and a tradition and art  aging millenia abandoned for cheap and rusty iron and scrap metal
within one or two generations ...

seems to me "projectile points" out of stone already had their peak in history a long time
ago in forgotten cultures like the clovis and others .... it maybe evolved too early and to quick
to perfection (maybe just within a hand full of generations)  and that more out of curiosity than
necessity .... and so it seems like a riddle to us , because we can not look back that much in time

i mean we are talking about things that are older than our pets and the food that we
eat ( older than corn, wheat , barley and so on ) ... maybe even older than our species
and i do not think we got the dna from those early prehumans who used projectile points

maybe in some cases even predating the use of fire ....

[Zuma]

would these work

[ekalavya]

@Zuma

wow !
blow dart weight should be between 25 and 50 grain ... (at least around that)
0.5 to 0.63" is a usual caliber for blow guns ...

30% FOC is alright ... may be some percent more if you shoot an object on the ground
( when shooting birds form a tree , you want other darts)

the modern plastic or paper cones are damn efficient even for 0.63" caliber blow guns ...
however historical blowguns used thistle , fur , cotton, kapok and so on and
that usually requires a smaller caliber or diameter of the blowgun
(just personal experience)

So , if you use at least 0.63" caliber and 7' long blowgun and blow that with ease
(for some people that is difficult ) and use cones and the dart is no more than 60 grain
it should work .... However i do not know how many hits you need for a distance of 15 yard
for the rabbit to be dead ... maybe one would be enough with such a dart ... for the usual
ones are said to need three ...

By the way the paper cone is enough when making a japanese fukiya .... only
the point or tip (usually a nail or something) needs to be from metal ... but it could
be stone or glass as well ...  ( i am not sure , but i think the fukiya dates to medieval
japan and was never used in the americas, indonesia or outside japan ... although
paper or paper like something was known in mexico)

[Zuma]

Thanks for the info but I'm really trying to stay on the
Native American typology. Paleo at the moment.
If you took your post and started a thread about
Blowguns and darts I would be glad to join you.
and I think others have some cool views also.
But It would have to be based on (knapping)
Or if the thread was in Primitive Skills I guess any primitive
 material would work I have quite a few points I think may
be made for blowguns. I'm to blame here by posting the photo.
I'll try to remove it to.
Thanks Zuma

[ekalavya]

suppose one finds a 25 grain broadhead , probably made by a long forgotten
civilization .... there is a chance to think of it just merely as waste ,
but it could as well been mounted on a blow gun dart ...

i found such triangular pieces of a black hard stone ... probably basalt
... and some of other rocks ... which just needed a proper sharpening
to be useful ....
(it works , because i tried that out ... and yes , i could have done better)

of course in evolution one first starts with something some found in nature
... a sharp teeth ... a stone split looking like that ... and then man made refining ...

there are evolution of so called "unlogical" taboos as well ...
and this could explain why arrows were decorated or crasted ... why
certain kind of arrowheads evolved and the feathers of some birds were taboo
or forbidden or why some arrowheads were made of bones 

even today some US states have laws on arrowheads right now in the 21st century ...
well, i dare not call this a taboo , but maybe they will call it that in 10 000 years

also not being allowed to kill an animal with bow and arrow in some european countries
is a modern taboo or the prohibition of the blowgun for hunting and even recreational use in
california

[AncientTech]

Ben
Could you do me a favor and see if you can find Tony Bakers Clovis C14
timeline paper. It's a great resource and it would show us where to look
up sites chronologically. It has every site location and dates available to him.
I know I found it a couple years ago. It may be in a PDF file.
I can't open them. Or we could wing it. But I would like very much to stay
with Paleo before moving on to the Archaic. For clarity. Oh BTW Galt is know
as a long time Clovis settlement. Long time. lol
Thanks Zuma

Hello Zuma,

Sorry for the delay.  I found this:


Clovis First / Pre-Clovis Problem -- Revisited 2004


Appendix
C-14 Dates

Tony Baker
September 15, 2004

http://www.ele.net/art_folsom/pre-clovis_2004/c14appendix.htm

Sample #

Complex/
Tradition

Site

Calendar Date
+1 sd *

C14 date

Lab #

Source

1  El Jobo  Taima-Taima, Venezula       15792-16381  13390 +130  IVIC-668  Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56 
2  El Jobo  Taima-Taima, Venezula       15792-16381  13390 +130  IVIC-662  Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56 
3  El Jobo  Taima-Taima, Venezula       15523-16169  13180 +130  IVIC-671  Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56 
4  El Jobo  Taima-Taima, Venezula       15459-16123  13130 +130  IVIC-663  Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56 
5  El Jobo  Taima-Taima, Venezula       15257-15959  12980 +85  SI-3316  Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56 
6  El Jobo  Taima-Taima, Venezula       14530-16082  13000 +200  Birm-802  Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56 
7  El Jobo  Taima-Taima, Venezula       14456-16135  13010 +280  IVIC-191-1  Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56 
8  El Jobo  Taima-Taima, Venezula       14455-16092  12990 +260  IVIC-670  Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56 
9  El Jobo  Taima-Taima, Venezula       14395-15682  12770 +120  IVIC-669  Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56 
10  El Jobo  Taima-Taima, Venezula     14376-15624  12730 +120  IVIC-664  Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56 
11  El Jobo  Taima-Taima, Venezula     14345-15543  12660 +120  IVIC-660  Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56 
12  El Jobo  Taima-Taima, Venezula     14328-15502  12620 +120  IVIC-661  Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56 
13  El Jobo  Taima-Taima, Venezula     14304-15467  12580 +150  IVIC-627  Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56 

14  Clovis  Paleo Crossing, OH                13842-14983  12150 +75  avg. of several  Haynes 2002:12 
15  Clovis  Big Eddy, MO                        13636-14094  11900 +80  oldest date  Haynes 2002:12 
16  Clovis  Aubrey, TX                           13418-13808  11570 +70  avg. of several  Haynes 2002:12 
17  Clovis  Blackwater Locality #1, NM    12998-13753  11300 +240  avg. of several Haynes 2002:12 
18  Clovis  Colby, WY  13000-13408       11200 +200  RL-392 Frison 1991:25 
19  Clovis  Dent, CO  12425-13839         11200 +500  I-622 Frison 1991:25 

20  Sluiceway  Tuluaq Hill, AK                 13017-13332  11200 +40  Beta-159914 Rasic 2003:24 
21  Sluiceway  Tuluaq Hill, AK                 13017-13332  11200 +40  Beta-133393  Rasic 2003:24 
22  Sluiceway  Tuluaq Hill, AK                 13003-13334  11180 +80  Beta-122322  Rasic 2003:24 

23  Clovis  Blackwater Locality #1, NM    12878-13453  11130 +290  avg. of several  Haynes 2002:12 
24  Clovis  Lange-Ferguson, SD              12964-13342  11140 +140  AA-905  Frison 1991:25 
25  Clovis  Vail, ME                                12918-13338  11120 +180  oldest date  Haynes 2002:13 

26  Sluiceway  Tuluaq Hill, AK                 13004-13186  11160 +40  Beta-159915  Rasic 2003:24 
27  Sluiceway  Tuluaq Hill, AK                 13004-13160  11120 +40  Beta-159913  Rasic 2003:24 
28  Sluiceway  Tuluaq Hill, AK                 12978-13176  11110 +80  Beta-122323  Rasic 2003:24 


29  Clovis  Whipple, NH  12674-13427     11050 +300  avg. of several  Haynes 2002:13 
30  Clovis  Domebo, OK  12842-13381     11040 +250  avg. of several  Haynes 2002:12 
31  Clovis  Paleo Crossing, OH                 12928-13163  11060 +120  AA-8250-C  Haynes 2002:12 
32  Clovis  Paleo Crossing, OH                 12918-13137  10980 +110  AA-8250-E  Haynes 2002:12 
33  Clovis  Sheriden Pit, OH                     12914-13131  10970 +70  oldest date  Haynes 2002:13 
34  Clovis  Anzick, MT                              12886-13129  10940 +90  AA-2981  Frison 1991:25 
35  Clovis  Shawnee Minisink, PA              12886-13129  10940 +90     Haynes 2002:12 
36  Clovis  Domebo, OK                           12686-13154  10940 +180  avg. of several  Haynes 2002:12 
37  Clovis  Lehner, AZ                              12881-13119  10930 +40  avg. of several  Haynes 2002:12 
38  Clovis  Murry Springs, AZ                   12857-13114  10900 +50  avg. of several  Haynes 2002:12 
39  Clovis  Shawnee Minisink, PA              12858-13111  10900 +40     Haynes 2002:12 
40  Clovis  Cactus Hill, VA                        12436-13183  10920 +250     Haynes 2002:12 
41  Clovis  Colby, WY                              12667-13123  10864 +141  SMU-254  Frison 1991:25 
42  Clovis  Anzick, MT                             12661-12997  10820 +100  AA-2979  Frison 1991:25 
43  Clovis  Paleo Crossing, OH                 12433-13119  10800 +185  AA-8250-D  Haynes 2002:12 
44  Clovis  Domebo, OK                          12421-13138  10820 +230  average of several  Haynes 2002:12 

45  El Jobo  El Vano, Venezuela               12639-12911  10710 +60  B-95602  Jaimes 1998:25 
46  Clovis  Dent, CO                               12636-12899  10690 +50  average of several  Haynes 2002:12 
47  Clovis  Anzick, MT                             12441-12939  10710 +100  AA-2980  Frison 1991:25 
48  Clovis  Sheaman, WY                        12427-12913  10690 +105  Beta-25836  Frison 1991:25 

49  Agate Basin  Hell Gap, WY                 11968-13424  10850 +500  I-167  Frison 1991:27 

50  Clovis  Debert, Nova Scotia                12371-12842  10590 +50  average of several  Haynes 2002:12 
51  Clovis  Lange-Ferguson, SD                11698-13291  10730 +530  I-13104  Frison 1991:25 
52  Clovis  Shawnee Minisink, PA              12112-12990  10640 +290  average of several  Haynes 2002:12 
53  Clovis  Sheriden Pit, OH                     12176-12795  10470 +70  youngest date  Haynes 2002:13 
54  Clovis  Johnson, TN                           11161-13804  10700 +980     Haynes 2002:12 

55  Agate Basin  Allen, NE                       11361-13147  10600 +620  Tx-6594  LaBelle 2004:Table 5.6 

56  Clovis  Whipple, NH                           11703-12833  10430 +300     Haynes 2002:13 

57  Agate Basin  Agate Basin, WY             11309-12907  10430 +570  RL-557  Frison 1991:26 

58  Clovis  Big Eddy, MO                          11703-12319  10260 +85  youngest date  Haynes 2002:12 

59  Agate Basin  Allen, NE                        11341-12623  10260 +360  Tx-6596  LaBelle 2004:Table 5.6 

60  Clovis  Templeton, CT                        11264-12567  10190 +300  W-3931  Haynes 2002:13 
61  Clovis  Vail, ME                                  11123-12584  10040 +390  youngest date  Haynes 2002:13 

62  Agate Basin  Brewster, WY                 11172-11953  9990 +225  M-1131  Frison 1991:26 

63  Sluiceway  Irwin Sluiceway, AK          11301-11741  10060 +80  Beta-131336  Rasic 2003:24 
64  Sluiceway  Irwin Sluiceway, AK          11303-11691  10050 +70  Beta-134677  Rasic 2003:24 
65  Sluiceway  MIS-495, AK                    11263-11554  10010 +40  Beta-165299  Rasic 2003:24 
66  Sluiceway  MIS-495, AK                    11226-11336  9910 +40  Beta-165298  Rasic 2003:24 
67  Sluiceway  NR-5, AK                         10430-11544  9640 +300  Beta-146116  Rasic 2003:24 

68  Agate Basin  Frazier, CO                   10758-11178  9650 +130  SMU-31  Frison 1991:26 

69  Sluiceway  Irwin Sluiceway, AK         10740-11068  9550 +50  Beta-120696  Rasic 2003:24 
70  Sluiceway  NR-5, AK                         10703-11071  9550 +60  Beta-146117  Rasic 2003:24 

71  Agate Basin  Agate Basin, WY           10692-11091  9550 +130  SMU-32  LaBelle 2004:Table 5.6 

72  Clovis  Whipple, NH                          9871-11535  9400 +500     Haynes 2002:13 

73  Agate Basin  Brewster, WY                9918-11202  9350 +450  O-1252  Frison 1991:26 

74  Sluiceway  Tuluaq Hill, AK                 8658-8980  7950 +40  Beta-133394  Rasic 2003:24 


* Calendar dates calculated by author using CALIB REV4.4.2 (Stuiver and Reimer 1993:215-230).

[Zuma]

No problem Ben,
Give me a bit to digest it all. It's a whopper.
Thank you very much.
Zuma

[AncientTech]

Zuma, I think it is worth comparing the Paijan point to the alleged "El Jobo" point of Monteverde, and comparing the alleged "El Jobo" point of Monteverde to the rest of the El Jobo points found at Taima Taima, and in Venezuela. 

Then, note the relationship of the Paijan to the fluted fishtail, and ask whether the fluted fishtail really could have been coeval with the "El Jobo".

I have thought about this for years.

Here is the so-called "El Jobo" from Monteverde:

http://www.ele.net/kunz/slide23.jpg

Compare this to the Paijan:

http://www.geocities.ws/mineria_region/punta_paijan.jpg

If the slender Paijan point was really used for fishing, then what does it say about the slender point found at Monte Verde?  

I think if you pulled all of these dates - fluted fishtail, Paijan, El Jobo, MonteVerde - and factored them in to the other radiocarbon dates, it should be interesting.  But, what is even more interesting, is the materials that different point types were made from. 

Also, if the hypothesized function of the Paijan point has any relation to the finely chipped basalt point found at Montevideo, then I think that a maritime implication should be considered.  Ever see the woodwork at Montevideo?

Ancient Tech 

[Zuma]

Ben, That's great
I was thinking just North American but didn't put that in
the title. No matter I agree with you 100 percent.
That doesn't happen to often. lol Glad we can put our efforts
together.
Because if the C14 and stratified info is correct on
just Monte Verde it puts a really difficult wrinkle in the entire
morphology/evolution imo.
Really worth exploring before Clovis.
I want to put the data in a easy to read format etc.
But I sure would like to hear any and all ideas about Jobo
fluted stems/pre or contemporary. How or /do they mesh with
Haskett/Sluiceway etc.
Thanks again Zuma

[AncientTech]

Ben, That's great
I was thinking just North American but didn't put that in
the title. No matter I agree with you 100 percent.
That doesn't happen to often. lol Glad we can put our efforts
together.
Because if the C14 and stratified info is correct on
just Monte Verde it puts a really difficult wrinkle in the entire
morphology/evolution imo.
Really worth exploring before Clovis.
I want to put the data in a easy to read format etc.
But I sure would like to hear any and all ideas about Jobo
fluted stems/pre or contemporary. How or /do they mesh with
Haskett/Sluiceway etc.
Thanks again Zuma

"But I sure would like to hear any and all ideas about Jobo
fluted stems/pre or contemporary. How or /do they mesh with
Haskett/Sluiceway etc."

There is a smaller fluted stemmed point, I think out of Colombia.  Regarding the Haskett, Sluiceway, El Jobo points, I am not convinced that they are related. 

I think that the Haskett could be a knife, rather than a projectile point.  Not counting MountVerde, the other El Jobo points that I have seen are intensely granular.  It is not the type of material that would lend itself to smooth, Clovis-like flakes.  In the same areas, when fluted fishtails are recovered, I believe that they are frequently of a much higher grade of material, such as agate, jasper, chert, etc.

As for the thick lanceolate bodied points, I am not convinced that the could not have been independently invented. 

Here is a good article (in Spanish) on a fluted fishtail site.  The author points out that the blades shown are either Clovis technology blades, or a descendant of Clovis.  My thought is that the initiation of the blade looked like the work of a wooden punch.  There is also a Clovis-like graver. 

http://www.scielo.cl/pdf/chungara/2015nahead/aop0415.pdf

What I wonder is whether there was a single precursor to both fluted fishtail points, and Clovis points.  I think the old model was that Clovis was early, and fluted fishtail was late.  But, I am not sure that they had many dates in when that model was put together. 

If I can dredge up enough fluted fishtail dates, I will incorporate them into this list. 

[Zuma]

That's cool Ben.
I have been hunting and having a few folks over to knap and
learn some neat stuff that Helena teaches.
First thing I want to do is take Tony's work that you found
and graph it in a east/west-north/south configuration.
It may reveal something.
Later, Zuma
Oh btw do you have any solid dates and locations on fluted stems?
Fell's Cave??? etc.

[Zuma]

Come on Ben.
I could use your knowledge here.
Time well spent imho.

Here are Tony's Projectile types by dates of calendar years

El Jobo Dates  oldest 15,381  VenezulaTaima-Taima     
" "  "    ""          latest 12,639  Venezula El Vano

Clovis                        14,983
                                  9,871

Sluiceway                  13,017
                                  8,658

Agate Basin                13,424
                                   9,918



Here are Tony's sites by earliest dates with their locations.
 Please bare in mind that these locations are just from Tony Baker's
work. A bit dated today because more sites have been found.
Perhaps we/I can add new locations and dates.
I see no directional linearity here??
But that does not mean that with more comprehensive site inclusions
direction cannot be found.
The list below is oldest location to latest.

Ohio
Missouri
Texas
New Mexico
North central Wyoming
Colorado
South Dakota
Maine
New Hampshire
Oklahoma
Ohio
South Western Montana
 Eastern Pennsylvania
Southern Arizona
South Eastern Virginia
              Nova Scotia
North Eastern Tennessee
Tempelton Connecticut

Here are the C14 dates Tony compiled.
By point type
Tony you da man!

Clovis
OH, Paleo Crossing 12,150+/- 75   2nd 11,060+/-120 10,980+/-110
Mo Big Eddy           11,900+/-80
TX Aubrey               11,570+/-70
NM Blackwater        11,300+/-240  2nd 11,130+/-290
WY Colby               11,200+/-200  2nd 10,864+/-141
Co Dent                  11,200+/-500
SD Lange Ferguson 11,140+/-140  2nd 10,730+/-50
ME Vail                   11,120+/-180  2nd10,040+/-390
NH Wipple               11,050+/-300  2nd 10,430+/-300 3rd 9400+/-500
OK Domebo             11,040+/-250 2nd 10,940+/-180
OH Sheriden Pit       10,970+/-70
MT Anzick               10,940+/-90   2nd10,820+/-100
PA ShawneeMinisink 10,940+/-90  2nd 10,900+/-40
AZ Lehner                 10,930+/-40
AZ Murry Springs       10,900+/-50
VA Cactus Hill           10,920+/-250
Nova Scotia Debert     10,590+/-50
TN Johnson                10,700+/-980
CT Tempelton             10,190+/-300 

Agate Basin
WY Hell Gap               10,850+/-500  2nd 10,430+/-570
WY Bewster                  9,990+/-225  2nd  9,350+/-450
WY Agate Basin            9,550+/-130
NE  Allen                    10,600+/-620  2nd  10,260+/-360

Alaska Sluiceway                   11,200--7950
CO  Frazier                   9,650+/-130

Yeah it's a bit much. But better to try and fail than not try.
Zuma