A bit of a rant

[nakedfeet]

Alright, here are a few pictures. I'll try to approach it as neutral as I can, and you guys tell me if anything looks more-obviously-wrong than I can see.

Some of the pictures are flipped, being right in one photo and left in the other, but hopefully you can make sense of it.

Let's play Find the Fret! (I already said where it was, but if you missed that in the OP, instead of going back and reading, look for where it's bending too much.)

Just started bending, with only some twist removed.



After tempering and adding in some reflex.



Last bends with the "long" string.



Low brace.



"Short" string pulled to I think 14".

This is a good opportunity for you to really fine tune your tillering.

It may well be that saving some to use as a teaching tool wouldn't be a bad idea. I've read many times that black locust, for instance, is a bowyer's best teacher.

In my (perhaps unfounded) opinion, these particular pieces are just bad. I'd wager more unforgiving than locust, but I don't know. It's just that on all three the tiller isn't that far off, again, in my estimation.

Plus, on top of that, many of the staves are somewhat sub-par, with twist etc. It'd be a lot of work with the heating and twisting and in some cases backing just for a lesson. Plus, if black locust is a teacher, there is black locust around -- I just need to find some that's not in places like public parks....

Check the mass on the bows that you allready completed and see what it is. We have a phrase around here we quote often but not often enough. " never bend the limb any further than what it takes to expose an area that needs work, this might mean two inches of bend. Try again!!

I really should get a scale and try tillering by mass. That said, I already follow the "no set tillering" method that you've outlined many times pretty carefully. It was one of the easiest ways to see good results as a beginner/novice. In this particular case I was able to pull to 16 without losing any weight, but when pulled to 18 I'd lose just a bit. So I was basically just working on weight reduction. It had only been pulled to 18" about 6 times.

[PEARL DRUMS]

I see nothing alarming Tony. You have one limb stronger than that other, but no bad bending portions. If a wood is so sensitive that it has to be super babied to coax a bow from it? Its not good bow wood and absolutely nothing I'd carry when it mattered.

[JoJoDapyro]

Just my 2 cents. I don't know of your experience with building bows. I know that the failure of many people here is due to going faster than you should. I am super slow, and over careful. I wouldn't go so far as to call me a bowyer yet. Go slow, and don't try to work through your frustration. Learn to stop when things aren't working so you can get a fresh set of eyes on the issues.

[George Tsoukalas]

In the bottom photo, Nakedfeet, the left limb is really stiffer than the right limb. Looks like the stave is rocking to the left. Most of the bending on the right limb is taking place mid limb on. Not much bending in the near handle wood.

I'm having trouble keeping all of these photos  straight. LOL.
Don't be ashamed of frets we've all had them.

Jawge

[bradsmith2010]

did the frets start before you heat tempered

[Dances with squirrels]

Burn it. It's done it's job. It's already made you a better bowyer.

[nakedfeet]

Yeah, those particular photos weren't the latest looks I had at it, just the pictures I had. (I tend to take them as I go because seeing problem areas in a picture tends to be easier for me.) I had gotten the limbs close to even.

The fret (singular) popped up after tempering.

[dylanholderman]

What about making arrow shafts from them

[Robert Pougnier]

Old thread here but maybe someone will catch this.

I've had some issues with localized fretting/chrysals on two of my sugar maple bows. Both were from the same tree harvested in the summer in Vermont. A 10 inch log that yielded 6 staves, so I have 4 left. The first bow I build was a flatbow 66" ntn with a pyramid design, 50# at 28". I shot it for months with no issue. After moving it to a slightly more humid climate and leaving it unstrung for a few weeks, I took it down and strung it. After inspection i noticed a 2 inch patch midlimb (lower limb) had developed a serious chrysal network. There is a tiny dip in the back about an inch above it, and i suspect that was the culprit. It did not take long for the bow to take excessive set there and I've set it aside as a learning tool. the maximum width for this bow was 1 and 7/8" at midlimb. 

My second sugar maple bow is 65 inches ntn and 47# at 28". I recurved the last 6 inches and it holds about 1.5 inches of reflex after about 100 shots. I kept the bow fairly wide, 1 and 3/4" inches at midlimb. I was feeling redeemed in the sugar maple camp and the bow was shooting really clean and fast. The other day after stringing it I noticed a localized fret on the lower limb, again. It's smaller than the last patch and the bow has not taken any noticeable set. I have not shot it since but was thinking i would go ahead and put it through the paces and see what happens. Bad idea?

Besides an overstrained cherry bow, I have not experienced this issue with other white woods. I mainly work eastern hop hornbeam and elm, but I've had some great luck with hickory and white oak staves as well.

Both of these maple bows received a decent heat treatment on the belly and showed no obvious signs of tlller imbalance. I've felt some frustration with sugar maple as both these bows did not seem close to be strained to the limit during the build. I'm hoping to use some of the remainder for cores in a horn/sinew bow.

Anyone else seem to run into this with sugar maple? Any suggestions? I'm wondering too what people's experience is with shooting bows after developing minor chrysals, should i assume they will fail dramatically if shot?

I've heard such good things about it and there's plenty around where i live!

Thank you!

[Badger]

 10 years since this post. I have very mixed luck with sugar maple. I love the way it shoots when it doesn't fret. Most of mine is kiln-dried from the lumberyard.

[Jim Davis]

I've only made one  bow from sugar maple. It was a short 50# bow with about a 25" draw. It was more than 20 years ago and I don't remember where that bow went.

I have made quit a few from red maple and had no trouble with frets. I made all those  maple bows 66" NTN, 2-1/2" wide at the fades, straight tapered sides to 3/8" tips, about 7/16" thick from fades to tips. They were all near perfect tiller right off the band saw. Finished up on a belt sander. Draw weight averaged in the high 30s.

I have made two lighter bows from loblolly pine that did not fret. They too were about 7/16" thick with lengths appropriate for the draw length. They were narrower and came in at 25#. Neither had any frets. Both took about 2" of set from their pretillered condition.

For any wood, for a given amount of bend on a given radius, there is a particular thickness above which damage will occur. A piece of maple or balsa 1/16" thick might bend 180 degrees without damage. A sample 1/2" thick probably would break before reaching 45 degrees.

Thickness needs to be appropriate for the amount of bend. Draw weight needs to be the result of width.

[JW_Halverson]

Yeah, this is an old thread, but it dredges up some names I miss seeing. Some I will reach out to and re-connect with. Others can no longer be reached.

But the information and the learning is still right here, a legacy for all to access. Reminds me once again of the debt we all owe Sleek for resurrecting the forum.