Author Topic: Origin of the Duci'ne  (Read 6107 times)

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AncientTech

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Origin of the Duci'ne
« on: August 11, 2015, 09:44:17 am »
"The Duci'ne originated from a boy of evil disposition who killed people. His mother was an Indian woman, and his father unknown.  When just a tiny boy, he made arrows. As he grew up, he made the arrows larger and put stone heads on them. He shot first at marks, and then at small animals, such as mice. Later he shot larger animals, and finally a dog. His mother thrashed him for this. After this he made stronger arrows. One day he was playing a shooting-game with other boys, and shot one of them.

The people were angry, and blamed the mother for not correcting him and for allowing him to behave badly. The boy ran away, and his mother followed him.  She held out her breasts to him, and entreated him to come back, saying, "Come, here are your breasts! " He shot her through the breasts. He became completely wild now, and never returned to the people.

He went to the mountains where obsidian is abundant, and made many arrow-heads. Whenever he made one which did not suit him, he threw it away. He spent all his spare time making arrow and spear heads. All the unfinished arrow and spear heads found here and
there scattered over the country were made by him. They are the "heads" he discarded in his travels around the country and when hunting. He used no flakers of any kind. He flaked the arrow-heads with the palms of his hands, which were of bone."

(THE JOURNAL OF AMERICAN FOLK-LORE, VOL. 34.--OCTOBER-DECEMBER, 1921.--No. 134. 'TAHLTAN TALES.'  BY JAMES A. TEIT.)

Offline nclonghunter

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Re: Origin of the Duci'ne
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2015, 11:22:16 am »
Where are the pictures?  :D
There are no bad knappers, only bad flakes

Offline mullet

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Re: Origin of the Duci'ne
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2015, 09:51:59 pm »
nc, you took the bait. ::) :'(
Lakeland, Florida
 If you have to pull the trigger, is it really archery?

AncientTech

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Re: Origin of the Duci'ne
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2015, 06:49:56 am »
nc, you took the bait. ::) :'(

"Took the bait"?  Can I have an interpreter, please? 

The story is a myth, from the Northwest.  It is from the Tahltan tribe.  The Tahltan mined obsidian from Mount Edziza.  The story explains how the Tahltan viewed flintknapping - or the products of flintknapping - to some degree.

https://www.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/exhibits/journeys/english/mountain_1_4a.php

   

Offline caveman2533

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Re: Origin of the Duci'ne
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2015, 07:30:40 am »
"He flaked the arrow-heads with the palms of his hands, which were of bone."

That's the point, more evidence for Ben theory that we are all doing it wrong.

Offline Zuma

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Re: Origin of the Duci'ne
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2015, 12:34:32 pm »
Please pass the pipe and popcorn
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

AncientTech

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Re: Origin of the Duci'ne
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2015, 04:37:01 pm »
LOL!  It is a myth, people.  It is not meant to be an instructional on how to use skeletal hands to chip stone.  It is also not an instructional on how to shoot other people's dogs.  It is a myth that explains the presence of flintknapping products found around Mt. Edziza.  Duci'ne is a mythical character.  Also, the myth shows how "primitive archery" was viewed by the Tahltan tribe, even during the early 1900's, when the myth was recorded by Teit.  LOL!! 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 04:40:32 pm by AncientTech »

Offline caveman2533

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Re: Origin of the Duci'ne
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2015, 06:49:52 pm »
Why do you need a myth to explain fact?  Come on Ben your motives are as clear as glass.

Offline magick.crow

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Re: Origin of the Duci'ne
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2015, 08:51:00 pm »
I have been learning TCM (acupuncture) for a really long time and one thing that I have learned is that these stories are true but just not in modern language or perhaps I should say thought. It is a tongue of the heart and stomach not of math.

IMOHO!! It means this:

"The Duci'ne originated from a boy of evil disposition who killed people. His mother was an Indian woman, and his father unknown.  When just a tiny boy, he made arrows. As he grew up, he made the arrows larger and put stone heads on them. He shot first at marks, and then at small animals, such as mice. Later he shot larger animals, and finally a dog. His mother thrashed him for this. After this he made stronger arrows. One day he was playing a shooting-game with other boys, and shot one of them.

As boys grow up they don't understand weapons and shoot the wrong things as they play. They also become macho and what to use weapons on someone just because they are bad ass.  I remember to this day the time I shot a small song bird with my wrist rocked. Before for that I had never hit what I was shooting at. After that I NEVER shot at anything I did not need to eat! Even then, I still feel quite bad for the life I have taken and honor the spirit as best I can. I feel this even for plants but not as strongly.

I was a MA teacher and young and have to admit putting myself in places I should not have been to see if my stuff worked as well as I thought (knew) it would or just because I wanted to try it out or some thoughts equally stupid, young and dangerous. We are talking walking downtown Atlanta at night on the side streets in the late 80s. I was lucky; I live.

Warning strong language:
My marine roommate used to call it young, dumb and full of cum. I hope that is not to far into the R ratings for this board but that is how marines often talk.
Safe now.

The people were angry, and blamed the mother for not correcting him and for allowing him to behave badly. The boy ran away, and his mother followed him.  She held out her breasts to him, and entreated him to come back, saying, "Come, here are your breasts! " He shot her through the breasts. He became completely wild now, and never returned to the people.
He was unlucky and others saw is poor and young stupidity. His mother wanted to forgive him but he could not forgive himself so he ran off. Perhaps this is a warning not to be so stupid because we all go through this sort of thing.

He went to the mountains where obsidian is abundant, and made many arrow-heads. Whenever he made one which did not suit him, he threw it away. He spent all his spare time making arrow and spear heads. All the unfinished arrow and spear heads found here and
there scattered over the country were made by him. They are the "heads" he discarded in his travels around the country and when hunting. He used no flakers of any kind. He flaked the arrow-heads with the palms of his hands, which were of bone."

(THE JOURNAL OF AMERICAN FOLK-LORE, VOL. 34.--OCTOBER-DECEMBER, 1921.--No. 134. 'TAHLTAN TALES.'  BY JAMES A. TEIT.)

And now that we have your interest because we created sympathy for the main character just as all good stories do at the start we will teach you some very important stuff.

Obsidian is found in the mountains and it makes good arrowheads but it takes lots of practice.

There are arrowheads all over the place (I for one still wonder about this. How often do you find a quarter on the streets? How can it be that we go out and find 12 arrowheads in a day of looking and everyone of them is made in a different way? What is up with this? How can there possibly be so many and so varied??)

He used no flakers of any kind? Is that a modern addition? I don't know this story so I could be making a real fool of myself. :-) I really don't get this line. Perhaps his techniques were so good that he did not need one? Any ideas anyone? what does flaker mean in this context? Is not bone used to flake and rock for the big work?

Flint is best knapped with bone. Would they include antler as bone?

Offline mullet

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Re: Origin of the Duci'ne
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2015, 08:54:30 pm »
And Ben has answered more questions in this new "myth" then he has in all of his earlier Post.
Lakeland, Florida
 If you have to pull the trigger, is it really archery?

Offline caveman2533

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Re: Origin of the Duci'ne
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2015, 09:51:17 pm »
Obsidian is easy to work, maybe he flicked em off with his finger nails.

Offline JW_Halverson

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Re: Origin of the Duci'ne
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2015, 09:57:10 pm »
Obsidian is easy to work, maybe he flicked em off with his finger nails.

Bi-coastal, no doubt. .
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Offline Zuma

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Re: Origin of the Duci'ne
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2015, 11:54:58 pm »
More popcorn and a keg of Maker's Mark please.
 ::) :-X >:D O:)
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

AncientTech

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Re: Origin of the Duci'ne
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2015, 08:04:01 am »
(Duci'ne or Duce'na are a kind of wild people, partly cannibal, of wicked disposition, believed to inhabit the country, especially to the east. They wear clothes, and look like people. They often sing and dance as they go along. They possess great shamanistic power, and, when hunting in the mountains, conceal themselves in a cloud of down, so that people cannot see them. At a distance the down looks to people just like fog. They are said to cat only the ribs of game they kill. They are good hunters and travellers. At the present day the name is used as a common designation for the Cree Indians.)

A man went with his family to trap marmots. He thought Duci'ne people were near. Therefore he told his wife to build the door of their house in the form of a passage, with a recess on one side where a person could hide. He said, "If you see a fog travelling on the mountains on a clear day, you may be sure that it is a Duci'ne man." One clear day after this the man was hunting sheep. He killed one, and brought it home to camp. His wife told him that she had seen the fog that day : so at dusk he asked her to hide with the children in the woods near by, while he would wait in camp. He kept up a large fire, and laid the body of the sheep alongside the fire, and covered it with blankets. About midnight the fire had burned down a little. Then he heard a sound as of some one approaching, and he hid in the recess near the door. Soon a man holding bow and arrows entered, and, seeing what seemed to be a man asleep near the fire, he discharged an arrow into the sheep. At the same moment when he lifted his arms to shoot his bow, the man from the recess shot an arrow into his body below the arm. The Duci'ne ran out, making a noise like a bird flying, and disappeared. The man went out and called on his helper, the snow. Then snow began to fall, and covered the ground. Early in the morning he called his wife and children to camp, and told them he was going after the wounded man. He followed his tracks to a lake, where he came to the Duci'ne in the water, and a loon sucking his wound to heal it. He called on the man to spare him. The man refused, and shot him again; and his body sank in a deep part of the lake. Next morning he saw the Duci'ne afloat again, and the loon sucking his wounds. He shot him again, and this time cut off his head. He put his body in the water at one end of the lake, and his head at the other. The next morning the parts had come together, and the loon was attending to him as before. The man shot him again, and cut his body into small pieces. He carried them around, putting them here and there in different lakes and streams some distance apart. In this way he managed to kill him for good and all.

Offline magick.crow

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Re: Origin of the Duci'ne
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2015, 10:40:12 am »
Maybe he should have shot the loone.