Author Topic: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers  (Read 17991 times)

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Offline joachimM

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Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« on: February 12, 2015, 04:14:53 pm »
Hi Folks,

though this bow here was broken a few days ago (due to a stupid mistake), I still want to share a few thoughts on it, mostly because it refused to take more than a few mm of set and was made from scraps.
 
Specs: toasted hazel (Corylus avellana) 137 cm ntn (54”), 7 mm thick throughout working section (0.275”), to 8.5 mm thick (0.33”) in last 10 cm (4”) to nocks. Naturally set back in the handle, yielding 2.5 cm (1”) of net reflex. Pyramid design, 43 mm wide (1.7”) at fades to 10 mm (0.4”) at nocks. Each limb was 56 cm (22”) long, 25 cm (10”) stiff handle and fades . Prior to backing: 21# at 27"
Backed on each limb with 10 m of rough single ply sisal cordage that I recovered from hay ballots (cut into 25 cm pieces, washed, combed) and glued with gelatin (c. 9 g of gelatin per limb). Backing c. 3 mm thick, slightly crowned.

The stave from which it was made had been attacked by grubs, so both limbs had two holes (3-4 mm diam) going from back to belly, but which were filled with epoxy. Still, I wanted to try backing it.   

When I approached 28# during draw-weighing of the backed bow the string slipped off one of the nocks and the dry fire caused one limb to break at the belly. Draw weight: close to 40# . Shot 330 grain arrows 210 m (230 yd) far. My guess is that this bow, had it not dry fired, would have shot around 175 fps at 10 gpp. 

The picture shows rather extreme floor bending and the profile just following that. Despite this crude maltreatment (over and over again), the limb refuses to take more than a few mm of set. Although the bow is useless now, it has shown me the potential of plant fiber backing. No sinew pounding for me in the near future.

Joachim

Offline cdpbrewer

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2015, 05:08:14 pm »
That's a bummer about the bow.   Thanks for the info on sisal- it sure is easier and cheaper to get than sinew or flax. 

c.d.

Offline Springbuck

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2015, 05:42:51 pm »
  I like plant fiber backins a lot, and I still advocate linen canvas, (despite a few draw backs).  I apply it with a jig that cranks the bow into reflex first, to pull it tight, and love to draw on it.

  The two backings are very different, though.  I'm amazed at your hazel success, for sure, but sinew stretches 10% or more of it's length, and plant fibers just stay put and stretch hardly at all.  So, I use them for different applications

Offline joachimM

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2015, 06:50:11 pm »
  The two backings are very different, though.  I'm amazed at your hazel success, for sure, but sinew stretches 10% or more of it's length, and plant fibers just stay put and stretch hardly at all.  So, I use them for different applications

I often have the impression that sinew backings without a horn belly is like a monkey with a golden ring: you'll never stretch the sinew on such a bow for more than 2, max 3%. And if you would, no belly could stand that compression. Plant fiber backings can stretch up to 2% if I recall well, so I don't have the impression that one ever really needs the sinew's full capacity, unless on sinew-wood-horn composites.
Probably the most useful property is that it shrinks when curing, so you pull the bow into reflex. If, as you do, you reverse bend the bow, and add linen, you achieve about the same result.
And don't be mistaken: these plant backings do stretch. I recently had a similar argument about bamboo not stretching (on paleoplanet): bamboo does stretch, just like any other bundle of cellulose microfibrils, it's just very strong in tension, especially given its rather medium density.

I find woven backings much harder to apply than bundles of fibers, but if you have a good technique for doing so, is there a post where you describe it?
Joachim

 

Offline PatM

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2015, 07:24:17 pm »
The actual outer surface of bamboo is denser than 98% of the woods found in Archery.
 Pretty sure sinew can be stretched more when used properly on just wood.
 I hope you don't think your simple test proved inconclusively how much bamboo stretches on a wood belly.  ;)

Offline Mo_coon-catcher

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2015, 07:54:10 pm »
How well do you think that yuka would work for a backing? We have quite a bit of it growing around one of our sheds and have been thinking about using some of it for something. I sort of want to try backing ERC with it since I have a bunch of the stuff. This will probably be a spring or summer project since I already have 3 bows going now.

Kyle

Offline steve b.

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2015, 10:37:09 pm »
I have a short,  light weight rhodedendron bow with 8" of reflex that draws 28"+ and keeps 5" of reflex.  It has one thin layer of sinew, no horn, but the belly is concave.

mikekeswick

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2015, 03:18:09 am »
If you get a good piece of hazel it is absolutely bombproof. I have a short, de crowned test bow out of it, about 56 inch or so......it will go to 36 inch draw and no set.....seriously i'm not joking. I couldn't draw it any further because my tillering board bottoms out.On the other hand some hazel is lighter than balsa! That little bow is beyond nuts  :o :o :o

Offline sieddy

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2015, 10:38:38 am »
Would natural Jute twine work as a backing material?  ???
"No man ever broke his bow but another man found a use for the string" Irish proverb

Offline joachimM

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2015, 10:51:08 am »
Jute should work just fine, but someone needs to try it.

Offline sieddy

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2015, 10:59:08 am »
I'm working on a Yew stick which I've reduced the sapwood on. Inadvertently I have cut through a few pin knots so I think it could use backing. I also have a big roll of jute twine which needs using. So I think I'll try putting the two together and see how it goes!  :)
"No man ever broke his bow but another man found a use for the string" Irish proverb

Offline sleek

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2015, 11:06:12 am »
Hemp, jute, and sisal all work. Jute and hemp are the best in my experience.  Hemp being the best in my opinion only because its softer. I have repaired broken backs with it before. Works great.
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Offline Prarie Bowyer

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2015, 12:53:45 pm »
I could be wrong here but my understanding is that sinew is more elastic, ie stretches further and thus is less likley to over power the belly (and cause chrysals?).

That said cutting the fibers into shorter segments may allow them to slip against each other to some tiny degree and give a similar or better result to using sinew. 

That was going to be my next experiment in backing.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 07:02:32 pm by Prarie Bowyer »

Offline Springbuck

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2015, 02:15:26 pm »
"I often have the impression that sinew backings without a horn belly is like a monkey with a golden ring: you'll never stretch the sinew on such a bow for more than 2, max 3%. And if you would, no belly could stand that compression. Plant fiber backings can stretch up to 2% if I recall well, so I don't have the impression that one ever really needs the sinew's full capacity, unless on sinew-wood-horn composites."

I admit to having very little experience with sinew on bows, but I will agree that the absolute best use of it is likely on Asiatic composites.  On the other hand, I have the impression that wood bellies EASILY resist the compression induced by sinew backings. Sinew is a very "soft" backing. It stretches a lot, and quite easily. I always understood that a sinew backed bow stored energy IN THE SINEW, as it stretches, and the very fact that it does stretch means the belly is forced to compress less. My few experiments with cable backed bows bears this out to me.

 The part about the sinew not experiencing ENOUGH stretch is totally valid.  This why short, reflexed bows, or those allowed to dry into reflex are the most appropriate designs.  Those designs make the sinew work. A big flatbow absolutely will under - stretch the sinew.
On the other hand, bamboo and hickory backings "overpower" some woods specifically because they are so stretch resistant.  Plant fibers WILL stretch a little, but they resist it, Baker says they "stack" before they break, and they don't stretch far.



"Bamboo does stretch, just like any other bundle of cellulose microfibrils, it's just very strong in tension, especially given its rather medium density."

The very outer surface of most bamboo species is MUCH heavier than even the more common tropical hardwoods, though. I had some tropical bamboo from India once over 1.30 SG.

"I find woven backings much harder to apply than bundles of fibers, but if you have a good technique for doing so, is there a post where you describe it?"

Nothing to it.  I rough tiller a bow (mostly done this with board bows, of course) ad use a big C- clamp to hold the handle down to a 2x4.  The key is the clamp goes under the board and clamps the sides of the handle.  I place blocks under the tips to push the bow into reflex, as much as I think it will take.  Then thin some TB III with just a splash of water, paint it on the limbs as a sizing coat. Let it partly dry. I cut a linen strip as wide as the bow's widest point.Then slap down a layer of glue from the bottle, smooth it evenly, and lay the strip of cloth down end to end. Finally, I use the thinned glue to moisten the fabric so it will relax and pat it down against the limb, smoothing and lubricating the fabric as I settle it down with a finger or paintbrush.  It has never lifted on me while drying, except once on a crowned back.  When dry, I trim the sides with a knife and file the edges smooth to the limb edges.

Offline Springbuck

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2015, 02:17:33 pm »
If you get a good piece of hazel it is absolutely bombproof. I have a short, de crowned test bow out of it, about 56 inch or so......it will go to 36 inch draw and no set.....seriously i'm not joking. I couldn't draw it any further because my tillering board bottoms out.On the other hand some hazel is lighter than balsa! That little bow is beyond nuts  :o :o :o

That is very interesting.  I have a handful of hazel staves I haven't used, but they seemed so light, I was saving them for midweight, like neighborhood teenager bows.