Mark Stretton 200lb Guinness World Record blog

[WillS]

It's just misunderstanding the documents written back then, really.

To an artist or somebody watching, seeing somebody shoot 32" looks like they're "in the bow" in the sense that the string and bow at full draw are encompassing their whole upper body.  The fact that Mark and Joe can shoot around 200lbs without doing anything weird with the nocks proves that anybody can.

As for that vid of Joe shooting, he's not shooting for distance there, so he's not using the rolling loose.  Watch the video of him setting a new world record and you'll see him "leap about" then.  It's not used for any shooting other than actual distance shooting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN2jAsE9ics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTX1kss99_0

Different styles for different goals.

[Tree_Ninja]

Those videos prove that it is possible to loose a half dozen arrows, without any weird draw trickery. Fatigue would set in fast I imagine.

 Shoulder and back strength is required.  I hope starting an old chainsaw is good cross-training.

[HoorayHorace]

Well 200lb is amazing, and what a bow too!

What about drawing to the forehead and down? He isn't doing that either, it seems. 

Just looks like he is drawing a bow like anyone else, but to around 31 inches I'm guessing?

Saw a vid of a guy shooting really heavy bows on youtube. It was really old footage, but he just stood there and drew them like it was nothing. 

There is another guy on the tube who makes warbow videos, and you can tell that he is massively overbowed. 

Makes a war grimace each time he draws.

[mikekeswick]

Aye me too Del, within a couple of weeks I could draw just over 100# to 31. Mind i'm 35 and have been rock climbing for many years. Although climbing gives you great forearm strength that doesn't help much with drawing a heavy bow. I'm sure with a couple of months dedicated training I could pull significantly heavier. In Adam Karpowzi's book there is a picture of a massive 'double' hornbow....now that is a proper beast! Estimated weight at over 300#.....
The problem I have with the 'rolling loose' is that they seem to hold the bow at full draw for far too long. Put a bow on a tillering tree with a scale. Pull it to full draw and hold it there....what does the scale do.....lose weight. Holding a bow at full draw is NOT going to help distances no matter what 'evidence' i'm shown! How do the modern flight archers who hold the records shoot for distance? How did the Turks get those amazing distances with their flight bows. What do the laws of physics say! If you can add a bit of forward momentum AS the arrow is loosed of course you have added that extra initial velocity to it but it's the holding at full draw.....no don't do it!!! Whereas drawing the bow faster will raise the weight a little.

[Del the cat]

Well 200lb is amazing, and what a bow too!

What about drawing to the forehead and down? He isn't doing that either, it seems. 

Just looks like he is drawing a bow like anyone else, but to around 31 inches I'm guessing?

Saw a vid of a guy shooting really heavy bows on youtube. It was really old footage, but he just stood there and drew them like it was nothing. 

There is another guy on the tube who makes warbow videos, and you can tell that he is massively overbowed. 

Makes a war grimace each time he draws.

Ok, drawing to the forehead is a slight exaggeration (e.g for illustrative purposes), but I think Mark Stretton draws to about his eye line and then brings the elbow/forearm/hand down to well below the jaw. Whereas a target style draw would be along the line of lower jaw or just below along a straight line.
Plenty of people look but don't actually see...
I think the individual needs to find what works for them...
I don't really want to dig up all the old arguments/discussions about rolling loose etc. So I'm out.
Del

[WillS]

I don't really want to dig up all the old arguments/discussions about rolling loose etc. So I'm out.
Del

+1

[HoorayHorace]

It's a touchy subject then? Loosing techniques and so forth?

[Lucasade]

Have a read back through old posts here over the last few years and you'll see just how touchy it can get...

[mikekeswick]

The point I was making is that if you hold a bow at full draw it loses weight. Less weight = less efficient bow = less distance. Simple.
No room for 'heated' discussions with that one it's just plain common sense and can easily be confirmed by anybody with a scale.

[WillS]

All well and good until you realise that the bow isn't held at full draw during the rolling loose

The arrow is coming back right up until you let go.  Watch the first video of two that I posted earlier (Joe setting the 1/4lb record) and you'll see the arrow head moving back right up to the moment it goes.

Your point is non-debatable though - hold a bow at full draw and it slowly loses weight.  No argument there.

[Del the cat]

Groan, here we go again .
@ WillS ...
You are guilty of choosing whatever you like to support your "argument de jour"

Those videos which you have previously and repeatedly referred to as being exemplary. Showed the archer getting to v near full draw, dipping down to get full draw, then coming all the way up, then down a bit and finally loosing and leaping.
I distinctly remember in a previous thread analysing it frame at a time and estimating full draw being held for about 4 seconds and the leap being after the arrow had left the string.
There are so many variables that even if a leaping rolling loose does give extra distance it is impossible to say which part of it is actually making the improvement.
I don't think the leap is a part of any other flight shooting (but I'm happy to be corrected on this), whereas a snatch loose and not holding at full draw is.
Maybe the leap helps contribute to a snatched loose. Without decent high speed photography and painstaking analysis we won't know.
Finally to say it adds distance could simply be that without it their loose is poor or they are subconsciously not getting a good draw loose. In other words biasing the experiment to support their expected result. It happens in all fields of experiment, even those with fewer variables.
Del

[WillS]

Not getting drawn in

It's all been said and I wasn't starting anew.  I was replying to Mike's specific question, using a video to support that.  Watch the video, and its impossible to disagree as you can see the arrow moving backwards into the bow until released.  That's all.

No mention of whether the "leaping" has any effect whatsoever.  That's on other forums in other discussions and doesn't need to be dragged up again here, as personal opinions will clearly never change on this odd little topic!

[Del the cat]

Some stills grabbed from this thread... draw your own conclusions.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,46139.0.html

For Hooray Horace. Note the reltive right hand elbow positions. Starts high and finishes very low.
Del

[PatM]

Will, The point is that the bow is still held at virtual maximum extension for a long time. I wouldn't be surprised if a bow starts dropping weight with every second at an even shorter draw than we think.
 If you get a bow to 31 inches and then spend an extra four seconds getting the last inch it can't be beneficial.
  Looking at the pics it's hard to see definitively but it looks like full draw is reached while pointing at the ground, lost a bit on the way up and regained again.

[HoorayHorace]

What's with the guys in the background wearing WW2 Axis Uniforms? Is that the dress or something? The military look?

I was referring to this on YouTube. Looks really odd to me, and I think others might agree. @2.05, never seen anything like it in my life 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xWXp0_VTr-A


Don't want to sound like I'm picking on him though, bing honest though his strange release and posture might not be his fault. Never would pick on the less fortunate.