Author Topic: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif  (Read 30054 times)

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Offline JackCrafty

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Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« on: January 02, 2015, 04:42:15 pm »
While researching arrowhead types for a different thread (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,49309.msg683946.html#msg683946)

I noticed something.  :)

I'm going to go out on a limb and make a connection.  It appears that winged bannerstones were part of a headdress that is called a "Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif" in the "Southeastern Ceremonial Complex".

I found this motif while doing research on Etowah Mounds, Georgia.  It's not hard to see that the winged bannerstone could have been placed on an arrow shaft and worn in the hair.

As far as I'm concerned, I will consider all winged bannerstones to be part of this Bi-Lobed Arrow headdress.

From Wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Ceremonial_Complex
The Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif is often seen in the headdresses of the warriors/birdmen/chunkey players. A complex symbol, it is a graphic representation of a bow and arrow, an atlatl, or possibly a calumet. In the Red Horn Cycle, Red Horn is also called "He who gets hit with deer lungs", which may be a euphemism or an allusion to the fact that deer lungs with the trachea attached, resemble the graphic depiction of the Bi-Lobed Arrow. It may symbolize kinship and adoption rituals related to social hierarchies. Examples in the form of Mississippian copper plates have been found in many Mississippian culture sites.


Source for picture of copper bi-lobed headdress (last picture).  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Ceremonial_Complex#mediaviewer/File:Etowah_copper_pieces_HRoe_2007.jpg
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 04:50:28 pm by jackcrafty »
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Offline swamp monkey

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2015, 05:48:33 pm »
Patrick,  I have to confess I didn't know if you were tongue in cheek on that one or not.  Just in case you were serious, I want to point out another part of the puzzle.  I don't mean to be Johnny rain cloud, but use of winged bannerstones stops well before the Mississippian era. - By several centuries. 

Bannerstones were created and used from 7,000 years ago until about 2,600 years ago.  The Mississippian culture where those copper plates and engravings originated was from between 1400 to 600 years ago*.  (Dates can vary 50-75 years across the Eastern US depending on occupancy and adoption of traits identified to a particular culture.  Places Like Etowah GA say the site was occupied with a culture until 1550 AD.  so that really bucks the trend).  There was roughly over a thousand years between the final creation and use of drilled bannerstones and the depiction of bilobed arrow motifs.  bannerstones are an Archaic period item.  I am not aware of any bannerstones appearing in the Woodland period or the Mississippian. 

The puzzle of bannerstones is a real head scratcher to be sure.   :)  i love the discussion. 


Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2015, 06:54:52 pm »
Good points, and yeah, I'm serious.  Sorry it's hard to tell when I'm kidding.  I never confuse people on purpose, though...  (yeah right).  >:D

I realize that the winged bannerstones are much older than the Mississippian era but that doesn't mean that the culture or certain practices don't go back thousands of years.  I'll do more research but I don't think the bilobed arrow "thing" existed only during the Mississippian era.  Just because we can see artifacts like shell and copper items that have been well preserved, because they are relatively young, doesn't mean that they existed only in that time frame.

One of the weaknesses of archaeology is that it assumes something exists only in the time frame that it has been found.  It corrects itself when the next item is found.  And so on...
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 06:58:40 pm by jackcrafty »
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Patrick Blank
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Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
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Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2015, 07:10:45 pm »
OK, that response confused even me.  Let me give an example of what I'm talking about with regard the "weakness" of archaeology.

Examples of writing have been found that describe worship of the sun.  Does that mean that the sun was worshiped only during the time of that particular writing?  No.  It can be logically assumed that sun worship might be much older that the writings.

With the discovery of copper and shell items depicting bi-lobed arrow headdresses, it has been assumed that these items represent a culture that ONLY existed during the time the copper and shell items were made.  That would be like assuming that sun worship only existed during the time of the writings in the previous example.

OK, I think I made my point.  :)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 02:30:04 am by jackcrafty »
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Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Offline swamp monkey

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2015, 08:09:23 pm »
Patrick, I get what you are saying.  I have heard a convincing presentation that flint and igneous maces that had hourglass constrictions were crafted to emulate bannerstones.  The sketch below was of a mace found on a grave in SE Missouri at a Mississippian site.  The maces were from the mound building eras (Woodland & Mississippian) and the bannerstones from the earlier Archaic period.  Although atlatl and bannerstone use was diminished by introduction and subsequent use of the bow, one of two things happened.  The use of bannerstones went on longer than we can observe, OR the concept associated with them traveled on when the use of the object did not. 

All of that is valid stuff that has to be considered. 

I have to admit I am puzzled by the bilobed arrow thing.  Those items look odd and impractical to my 21st century eyes.  But they obviously had some importance to be crafted and depicted numerous times.  that copper example you shared is ornate to be sure.  Making that was time consuming.  They hammered the copper out, annealed, hammered some more, annealed again, and so on.  Eventually, they scored and broke off the parts that needed to be removed to make their shapes.   Labor intensive and precise work.  I have done enough to convince myself they were artisans in their own right. 

Cultural context is what really impedes our understanding on these objects that lack obvious modern counterparts.  Fascinating.


Nice thread.


Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2015, 11:21:13 pm »
The maces are definitely an interesting part of the "costume".  It's hard to know what they represent because they don't really look like anything.  Maybe they were made to look like "nothing" on purpose?  In any case, they look a lot more like a plant (flower or bud) than an atlatl or bannerstone or both together.

The bow and arrow in the Americas was developed somewhere in the range of 100 to 700 AD according to most accounts.  The winged bannerstones stopped being made by around 1000 BC..?.  This subject has been beaten to death, but I still don't see how the bow and arrow has anything to do with the loss of winged bannerstones.  I might be missing something but 1000 years is REALLY far for the winged bannerstone people to see into the future and stop making winged bannerstones for atlatls because of the "new" technology.    There has to be some other explanation... or maybe I'm missing something.

I think the winged bannerstones declined in use as copper became more important and more available as a material for the manufacture of ceremonial objects.

Other types of drilled bannerstones are also an interesting topic.  They are weird, in my opinion, but look a lot more durable and non-ceremonial that the winged variety.  I could spend more time researching all this but I'm getting overwhelmed.  I'm getting old.  So, I'm going to wait for someone to criticize me before I do more research.   :P

(oh yeah, and thanks for being such a good person to argue with)   ;)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 11:25:55 pm by jackcrafty »
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Patrick Blank
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Offline Pat B

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2015, 12:19:37 am »
I'm in the process of reading some books by Michael and Kathleen Gear that are telling about the time de Soto came into Florida, between, 1539 - 1543. The local Natives wore copper hair pieces and one carried a copper mace that seemed to be fashioned like what you posted above, Patrick. Very interesting stuff.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2015, 02:19:18 am »
Sounds interesting.  Any descriptions of the hair pieces?   :)
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2015, 02:57:46 am »
Here is a photo of a copper bannerstone that I got off of arrowheadology.  I need to track down the source and also need to see of there are other items like this.

---http://www.arrowheadology.com/forums/arrowheads-indian-artifacts/14150-show-me-your-copper.html
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2015, 03:07:04 am »
Here's another picture of a copper bannerstone (the same one?) but I still don't know where it was found....

---http://arrowheads.com/index.php/forums/what-did-i-find/57809-copper-arrowhead-or-spearhead
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Offline Pat B

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2015, 09:37:26 am »
They actually called the hair pieces "turkey tails".  There was mention of the copper being hammered out and the design cut out but no description of their methods.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline swamp monkey

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2015, 06:28:33 pm »
That copper bannerstone is super cool.  I had no idea they made those!

I did some digging in my resources.  Although archery is cited to arrive roughly 2,000 years ago here in Missouri, some more specific sources estimate it at 600 -800 a.d.  And another put it around 300-450 a.d.    What was interesting was the attempts to weigh and measure known arrow points and known atlatl dart points then use the matrix to determine what early woodland points were.  What they found was the statistics were able to sort some of the points but not all.   ;)

I admit that I favor the "archery supplanted atlatls" concept.  I also am convinced that bannerstones were used with atlalts.  however, I must concede that there are some holes that puzzle me.  If archery was introduced slightly after the beginning of the woodland period, then why didn't bannerstone production continue into the woodland period and decline gradually?  I am certain that some native Americans continued using atlatls even after bows were introduced.  One of De Soto's men (after De Soto died) made reference to being attacked by a native with a spear and described it as as something launched by an atlatl.  This took place on the lower Mississippi River.  It is the only historic reference to use of the atlatl in eastern North America.  Patrick if you hadn't brought up this topic I would never had dug around to find that.  Thanks for that. 

It is not a huge stretch to me for archery to slowly supplant atlatls.  So why aren't any bannerstones found in the woodland period?  I assert that having scoured my sources for any reference to bannerstones in the woodland or Mississippian periods is lacking.  I certainly concede that just because we don't find something doesn't mean it was not there.  However, mound building culture has been a long standing fascination with archeologists.  I think we have a pretty good idea of the sorts of things they procured and produced.  Bannerstones were not among them.

So why?  If they were so important for atlatl use  then why stop making them?  Bar weights were used with atlatls too.  Their use stopped into the woodland period as well. 

Why why why.

I have found more gorget examples with bilobed arrow designs for the Mississippian period but none for the woodland period. . . As of yet.  I have also found clear examples of marine shells being made into cups and beads in the archaic period but no engraved shell gorgets in the archaic.  Also no copper plates earlier than the woodland period.  This has given me new excuses to dig into old books and articles.  It has been a rainy day here with nothing I would rather do.  Thanks for the motivation and friendly discussion.

Ajh

To quote the mad hatter, "curiouser and curiouser."


Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2015, 08:34:58 pm »
This is getting off the subject slightly but I think we should explore the "archery supplanted atlatls" concept.  I have my own ideas on this.  A rare occurrence, I admit.  (yeah right)   :)

Anyway, it is assumed that the bow and arrow became the favored technology after 100 AD and the atlatl was used less and less after that point.  And no one would argue that bows were used next to atlatls for a long time until atlatls eventually disappeared in most areas.  I agree with these assumptions... but not in the way you may think.

I agree that atlatls disappeared over time but NOT because of the invention of the bow.  Atlatls became less favored because of changes to the ARROWS.  It is my opinion that arrows became smaller over time and, therefore, more suited to being fired by bows.  In addition, I believe that the bow is MUCH older than 2000 years in the new world!  This is were I disagree with archaeologists.

But if we look to the Amazon Indians, we see that they use HUGE arrows that are fired by bows.  Some are 75" long! What does this tell us?  Does it contract the idea that bows were invented for shooting small arrows?  No.   I believe it tells us that bows are more versatile than atlatls and were probably used further back in time than most people assume.

We all know that atlatls cannot fire small arrows as effectively as bows.  When the arrow size decreases, the use of atlatls decreases.  That's the point I'm trying to make.

In conclusion, I believe that weights were used with atlatls... just not the "fancy" drilled bannerstones.  And why are bannerstones not found in the woodland period in the East?  Easy.  They were using bows.  Just like the Amazon Indians.  Or the bannerstones were not used for atlatls at all...  and were replaced by other materials like copper.

(feel free to argue)  ;D
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 08:43:16 pm by jackcrafty »
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Offline mullet

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2015, 09:03:49 pm »
The more I mess with those bows, I have two originals, I cannot understand why they shot those long arrows unless they were used primarily for fishing. They do not shoot very far with those large arrows. And there have been several copper ornaments found in the Mounds in Florida. I've seen some pretty ornate pieces in private collections that are better then what the Museum has. Try researching artifacts that Ripley Bullen found, like Crystal River Mound site, Weeki Wachee, Marco Island, Maximo Point for a few.
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Offline swamp monkey

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2015, 09:44:57 pm »
Patrick,  your point is well made about bows being older.  I agree that our modern understanding of bows and where the technology ended up is not necessarily where it started in terms of size and function.  That is a new thought to me.   It makes sense though.   Most of what archeologists are basing their theories on is stone points.  That is their limitation.  They have to have material to study.   it makes sense in terms of atlatl function too.  Atlatls aren't exclusively the same all across the continent or the world.  for example, some flex and some don't.  Woomera in Australia are painfully long and stiff due to their dual use a club for dispatching game.  But you wouldn't really think of a basket maker atlatl from the desert southwest in the same way. 

In terms of drilled bannerstones and bar weights, sites like Indian Knoll and Chiggerville Kentucky clearly show antler atlatl hooks in direct association with bar weights and drilled bannerstones.  The soil conditions permitted a rare preservation of the antler materiel which gives us precious insight.  31 of the bannerstone were found along with antler atlatl hooks at Indian Knoll alone.  Archeology has its limits, but context is invaluable in terms of understanding what they were indeed associated.  In the cases where the bannerstone was not broken on purpose.  The hooks are very close to the bannerstone with only a few centimeters of distance between. 

Just for the record i am not an archeologist.  I am however an ecologist.

That is another part of the puzzle.  The climate and ecosystem responses may be a factor too.  We have to consider physics and physical practicality (what could they be used for?) in what culture (what did they mean to those people?) and in what environment (was the use impacted by the surroundings or the prey?)

Consider this.   Bannerstone use started in the early Archaic, then grew toward the late Archaic where they started to decline until the start of the Woodland Period.   Here in Missouri the Archaic period was warming up from the Ice Age.  Oak/hickory forest invaded.   As the Archaic progressed the climate got hotter and much drier.  as a result Missouri and surround area saw a huge uptick in prairie.  As the Archaic period turned into the Woodland things cooled a bit and got wetter. Oak hickory became more common again.   In fact things began to look a lot like they do today.

I am just asking questions here:  I assume bannerstones served some purpose to the hunter.  Would a prairie be a harsher environment to make a living in?  Was hunting harder?  Game scarcer?  Was an edge needed?  If so then perhaps climate is a factor.  But maybe not.  These are thought exercises.  I could be way off. 

One last thing that I will throw in here is the cultural shift that took place between the Archaic and Woodland periods.  The Archaic period was characterized by semi-nomadism (or at least a seasonal camp rotation) where a permanent settlement seldom existed.   Basketry was common, they cooked with clay stones called poverty point objects to heat water, hunted, fished and gathered their food.  Winters were the harshest part of the year that had to be survived.   Personal belonging were limited due to travel.

The Woodland period saw the introduction of agriculture and permanent settlements.  Seasonal camps existed but with a nucleus to a central settlement.  A non-nomadic lifestyle permitted accumulation of goods and heavier, less sturdy items like pottery.  The arts expanded and so on.  Less importance was placed on hunting and gathering although they clearly continued.  Winter was easier to endure due to the food surplus agriculture provides.  It just meant more work than hunting and gathering.  Culturally this was a huge shift in how things work.  What impact did this have on hunting tools or tools of any type.  There was a lot of fallout from this shift.  What made the cut and what didn't?  We may never fully understand. 

All I know is there are too many puzzle pieces missing form me to get too dogmatic.  If i come across as though I am right and everyone else i wrong, that is not my position at all.  I simply want to state the picture as I see it, be open to the ideas of others and enjoy the study and discussion. 

Very few people where I live would ever discuss this topic at the level we are right now.  Ya'll are awesome.    8) 8) 8)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 10:39:56 pm by swamp monkey »