"Moon phase rings" ? in osage. anybody know?

[George Tsoukalas]

Pat M, so if you look at Luke's first photo way back in the beginning of this thread,
I have seen those little tiny rings on osage and have scraped them away.
Is that what you want me to see?
Then, yes, I see them.
Jawge

[PatM]

Is this the real Jawge? I'm asking you if you think they are smaller parts of one large ring or actual individual yearly rings.
 Forget about chasing rings for a second and just think of it as a chunk of wood.

[mikekeswick]

I wonder why just this topic has such a lot of traffic.
For to be serious, every bowyer denying the existence of these "rings" should easily not call Saul but the closest eye specialist. If we could call these rings within the growthrings "lunar rings" is another question. Above all in elm an almost blind one has to see them. If the growing season is leaving its marks as the "non growing season" it is almost logical that they are more detailed marks like the "lunar rings". Life is not just "yes" or "not".
I find it heavily careless to ignore traditional wisdom, sorry but high tech science is to often acting like a god. How boring would life be without traditional wisdom, without myth and magic, trials and errors. I don' t believe any experienced bowyer stating all his work is based on rationality and science. Above all tillering is much more a feeling than everything else?

Simson, I don' t know why you try to affect others here, but as far as I know the Bavarians still believe the Earth to be a disk and everything is based on weiss beer. Don' t worry, I' m native Bavarian too.
For to quote the "spacemen. net"(http://www.raumfahrer.net/astronomie/sonnensystem/mond_einfluss.shtml)

.......Forscher der Technischen Hochschule in Zürich haben jetzt belegen können, dass es in Bäumen auch Ebbe und Flut gibt. Die Biologen haben dafür tropische Bäume untersucht. Mit einer Apparatur maßen sie den Durchmesser der Pflanzen auf Hundertstel Millimeter genau. Das Ergebnis zeigt ein schwellen und schrumpfen der Bäume im Rhythmus der Gezeiten. Der Zweck dieses Naturschauspiels ist aber noch ungeklärt.............

Translated: researchers of the Technical University of Zurich could prove now(2002) that there is even low and high tide within trees. Biologists researched tropical trees. They measured the diameter of the trees at a hundredth of millimeters. The result is confirming the swelling and shrinking of the trees corresponding the rhythm of the tides. Still the sense of this natural spectacle is unclear......................

The point is that Simsons source is the University of Zurich, my source is the Technical University of Zurich. Two tempels of infallibility( of the same town) came to just opposite conclusions!? So far  science.

It would be interesting to make bows of "staves" cut corresponding to some lunar phases and to compare them to "non lunar" staves.
I guess I' ll not find the spare time to do it.
Michael

Absolutely dead on that man. +1000 
Temples of infalabilty...
Good to read one of your posts again Redhawk.

[George Tsoukalas]

Pat M,

Guess I wasn't clear. Sorry.

"Pat M, to me they look like narrow full growth rings with much punky, early rings exposed.
I didn't count how many there were.
But, again, the back is not one continuous growth ring. IMHO.
Jawge"

Once again. When I've seen them I considered them full growth rings.
But that doesn't matter.
I just want a full, continuous  growth ring for the back. I'm a bowyer and am tenacious about that.

I'm skeptical about the moon's gravity affecting tree growth.

But what do I know? I'm just a poor farm boy still  living in the 50's.

I shouda listened to you, Slimbob.

Jawge

[George Tsoukalas]

"In view of the extremely weak gravitational forces, which came into question as an
explanation for circadian fluctuations, it is relatively unlikely that a direct gravita-
tional effect is responsible for these “tree and trunk tides”. "

Seems he's not quite so sure.

Here is Zurcher's study for those who would like to read it and make up their minds.


http://www.howplantswork.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/zurcher.pdf

Jawge

[Dean Marlow]

PatM
  Are these the lunar rings you are talking about? The little white lines in the early wood?

[SLIMBOB]

That's them.  Little white lines in the LATE wood.

[PatM]

 The little white lines may be in the late wood but they exactly correspond with the initial early growth in spring.
 I don't consider the white line as the ring, it's both the light and the dark portion together that makes the mini-growth ring. .
 Now count those smaller rings, how many do you see and what is the typical growing season in months for Osage?

[JW_Halverson]

Does ANYONE really believe that a growthring in a ring porous wood will only lay down xylem and phloem in the early wood and the rest is impregnible and solid lignin???

That's like saying the tree only needs a vascular system in the spring, the rest of the year it holds it's breath!

[SLIMBOB]

I for one don't believe that.  I have in fact read that what we have traditionally believed to be "dead" heart wood is in fact not dead at all and does serve some vascular function that diminishes with each successive year as a new layer of wood is laid down on top of it.  To me, the point you are making JW is the point.  The early/ late wood pattern in a growth ring correlates with the growing season.  I believe that the growing season is not just based on temperatures alone but photoperiod and a host of other criteria.  Is the Moons influence not a part of that criteria?  The manner in which the vascular tissue is laid down in cycles seems consistent with the moons cycles.  It just seems odd to me the sense of incredulity over the mere mention of this possibility.

[PatM]

Exactly. The wood basically replicates a year cycle on a smaller scale.  What is switching that cycle on and off so that it replicates the same pattern?
 

[JoJoDapyro]

It is once again getting into treacherous waters. You can believe anything you want, For or against Lunar rings. In the end we all need to take a step back and admit that we really don't know, and most people aren't going to change their minds about what they believe they are. I lean towards yes, they are caused by the Lunar cycle. I have noticed over the years that fishing by the lunar cycle is accurate more times than not.

[okie64]

Osage trees are usually the last trees to sprout their leaves here in Oklahoma and its usually late April when that happens. If my eyes are correct their are 5 to 6 of these lunar rings in the latewood pictured in Deans stave. So if these are lunar rings and being laid down monthly in the latewood does that mean that every bit of the true earlywood is laid down in the first couple of weeks and from there on it is all latewood. This would have to be true if you believe these are lunar rings considering the length of the growing season. I ask this question because I have never really been able to find a true answer as to when the early wood stops and the latewood starts laying down.

[PatM]

How long is the growing season there?
 After cutting several Elm trees in the early part of the year and observing the progress of growth it doesn't appear to take the tree very long to lay down the very porous early wood.

[okie64]

Usually 5 months in a typical year. Ive yet to cut a tree after August that the bark wasnt already stuck down and Ive cut a few that have already shut down as early as mid July, that was during a drought year though. It would be interesting to know just how long it takes the earlywood to lay down and when the transition is made to latewood.