"Moon phase rings" ? in osage. anybody know?

[redhawk55]

I´ve seen lunar rings in osage, black locust, elm and ash. Above all if growthrings are thick.
If the growing of a tree could be seen as years, it is quite logical it could be seen as months too.
We should take care not to mix up 2 things: lunar rings in wood are not the same as lunar phases. Lunar phases is an astrological concept related to the growing of plants etc.... It is scaled into the 4 elements: fire, earth, air and water, f.e. if moon is in cancer it is water. My wife, as more and more gardeners, is considering the lunar phases when planting f.e. strawberries, she is looking for the moon in fire(aries, leo, saggitarius). Fire is related to fruits and blossoms, if you go for strawberries with a water- moon(cancer, scorpio, pisces) you' ll get less and small fruits but big leaves. Water is related to the leaves.
This is really working, I´ve experienced it since years.
Nearby is a sawmill, cutting wood related to the lunar phases. They' ve "lunar conifers" only.
In past times it was much more common to cut wood according to the position of the moon.
I remember the Al Herrin newsletters posting dates when to cut bow- staves based on old Cherokee wisdom.
This is not logical in a scientific sense, old wisdom is based on experiences could be done by everyone, you don' t need a highly scientific education and a super expensive research- lab.

I´m cutting bow- staves by feel during late fall, maybe my dates are according to some "lunar dates". Would be interesting to check this.
I don' t think anybody has ever tried to follow lunar rings as the back of a bow?
This is not at all earlywood as we usually understand it, maybe there is a wood of the fallen moon and a wood of the rising moon?

I'm new to the PM- forum, cause I see heavily decreasing traffic on the PaleoPlanet and found some of my PP- friends here, so I just joint in.
Michael

[SLIMBOB]

That's what I meant to say...

[lukelawrence171]

a couple of you guys stated that the rings might be caused by the early wood '
 here is another pic of a different bow im working right now from a different tree that seems to have these rings. and one weird thing is that at different angles their not noticeable the second pic you cant really see them 

[Carson (CMB)]

As a bowyer, I believe they are inconsequential.  If you chase an annual ring perfectly, you wont see violated lunar rings, and if you do violate a lunar ring...no big deal. 

As a biologist, I think the question is fascinating, and I have some ideas about the mechanisms behind what in my mind is clearly the mark of the moon in these sub-annual vascular tissue patters.  Maybe I will take the time to articulate them at some point...but got bows to make today.

As a human, I feel this touches on a much deeper topic.  Science vs traditional wisdom. Like Mike, pointed out, we are quick to throw out the cumulative knowledge of our ancestors, for the warm fuzzy feeling of "scientific fact".  I worked in the scientific field long enough to realize that there is a lot of junk science being conducted and published...particularly in the messy life sciences, such as biology.  What is frustrating is that smart folks will for example say, "scientific measure says the moon's gravity is too weak to affect plants, therefore it does not affect plants - there you go, plain and simple irrefutable science, so I am right". 

[SLIMBOB]

Well said!

[Badger]

  Yes sir, a lot we don't understand that science has yet to explain, hell of a lot of fun trying to figure it out sometimes.

[PatM]

Yes Pat, I am pretty sure of that.  Because two trees side by side will vary in "lunar rings".  In fact within one tree there will be growthrings without lunar rings and growthrings with lunar rings.  My understanding of astrophysics may not be similar to that of Dr. Brian May, but I do know that the old moon she keeps a going, year in and year out.  I'll pick the fruit when it is ripe, not when lunar rituals tell me it is opportune.

It seems odd that you would be sure and yet admit you don't know what causes them.
 Remember sometimes trees will completely forgo a growth ring for a year so I wouldn't necessarily say that an absence of a lunar ring  is so telling.
 If a tree can skip a year of growth, why not a month out of a year?

Pray tell how one would determine that a tree  had skipped a year's growth ring--cut it down and look at the rings, then cut it down again the next year. Har, Har! It is to laugh!

And not know what causes something has no bearing on knowing what DOES NOT cause something.

There is a bit of lunacy involved in bowyering though.

Trees skipping a year are well documented. The reason they  do so is easily explained. Hard to believe you are being serious with your scoffing.

[RBLusthaus]

I've seen that on osage. Looks like early wood to me. I take a scraper to it and it is gone. Jawge

I agree with George.  See it all the time in BL, as the early wood rings are a little thicker (at least in my stash) than other woods, so it is easy to leave a little behind when chasing rings.   Use a scraper and get rid of it  -   or wait till the end and it will come off when sanding.

Russ

[JW_Halverson]

Yes Pat, I am pretty sure of that.  Because two trees side by side will vary in "lunar rings".  In fact within one tree there will be growthrings without lunar rings and growthrings with lunar rings.  My understanding of astrophysics may not be similar to that of Dr. Brian May, but I do know that the old moon she keeps a going, year in and year out.  I'll pick the fruit when it is ripe, not when lunar rituals tell me it is opportune.

It seems odd that you would be sure and yet admit you don't know what causes them.
 Remember sometimes trees will completely forgo a growth ring for a year so I wouldn't necessarily say that an absence of a lunar ring  is so telling.
 If a tree can skip a year of growth, why not a month out of a year?

Pray tell how one would determine that a tree  had skipped a year's growth ring--cut it down and look at the rings, then cut it down again the next year. Har, Har! It is to laugh!

And not know what causes something has no bearing on knowing what DOES NOT cause something.

There is a bit of lunacy involved in bowyering though.

Trees skipping a year are well documented. The reason they  do so is easily explained. Hard to believe you are being serious with your scoffing.

I'd like to see that documentation. 

And I would like to see an explanation as to why some growth rings (a representation of a year) show "lunar rings" and yet others within the same tree do not.  Did the moon fail to generate it's cosmic force part of the time?  I think we can count on the constancy of it's tidal pull, it's albedo, and it's periodicity.  Exactly what varies in the moon that the tree does or does not respond to in order to create these so called lunar rings?  If there is a cause and effect, why does it sometimes cause it in one growthring but not the next growthring, or why in one tree, but not every tree?  The mere randomness argues against causality. 

Ultimately, this conversation applies as well as arguing about which catfood Shroedinger's cat prefers.  I ignore "lunar rings" until they show up in the fadeouts in a bow.  Then they are things of beauty, magnifying and intensifying the innately wonderful patterns in the wood. 

[PatM]

http://www.conifers.org/topics/oldest.htm
Here's just one link that broadly touches on the idea of missed growing seasons and even multi ring growing seasons for some trees.
 I'm not sure why you wouldn't believe that anyway. If a tree is too stressed to lay down a ring then it won't. That doesn't happen too often but it does happen.
 As to why a tree may or may not produce lunar rings or why it might and it's neighbour doesn't can be due to a wide variety of reasons.
 different soil, age of the tree, crown height, foliage, bug infestation etc. etc.
 Just common sense stuff that favors or does not favor growth.
 I think it's a simple as the moon enhancing the flow of water up the tree like a mini-spring each month and if the other factors favoring growth are there to make the most of that, the tree lays down a mini growth ring in that month.
 I mean it's pretty clear that those are in fact  mini-growth rings identical in every way except total width.
 You can read up on plenty of articles referencing the ancient cedar trees of the Niagara Escarpment missing the odd growing season due to the unfavorable conditions for growth.

[JoJoDapyro]

I'll ask the Arborist I work with tomorrow. I hope he can give an answer, but I'm not holding my breath. He is a tree nerd, so I bet he can give at least some insight. I guess better to be a tree nerd than all of us Bow Nerds.

[George Tsoukalas]

Luke, looks to me like you missed several rings when chasing.

Everyone loves a good flying saucer, big foot, good ghost story or lunar ring story.

Jawge

[PatM]

You actually think they are a bunch of fine yearly rings Jawge?

[simson]

I know these rings, often seen them. Esp. in elm. Sometime called monthly rings sometime lunar rings.

But sorry folks never read so much nonsens before in just one thread!

Why the hell should a tree care about the shadow from earth on the moon (moon phases).

The university of Zürich in Switzerland did long experiments to proof that hype about moon phase timber. Nothing is true about that!

High tide / low tide
The moon causes the tides. This is only possible because of the huge mass of the ocean. A tree or the water in a tree has not by far a mass that is necessary to get some reactions caused by the moon.

Myth are myth! for some people it is good to have myth, but they are myth!

Just my thing, excuse my English! Not easy to express complex things in an other language.
             
                 I apologize if someone feels affected!

[huisme]

+1 simson, except the moon phase is the moon orbiting the earth, new moon being when it's completely "in front" of us relative to the sun, and new moon "behind." Different phases are different angles of observation giving us a view of more/less of the illuminated area of the moon.