Jaro's new article

[Del the cat]

The main advantage of the white woods is they are easy to find, straight and knot free.
Del

[WillS]

I don't think it's just that.  It's about as easy to find .85sg ash as it is to find straight, dense yew!  None of the English ash I've come across has anything like that density.  Try and make a 160# bow from English ash with a lower sg and you'll end up with a soggy banana.

[adb]

I asked Pip Bickerstaffe and Steve Stratton the same thing, and their response was the same... 'cuz that's how they started.' Simple as that.

And they know because....?
Del

And they know what?

[Del the cat]

I think this part of the discussion is about why Jaro turns his bow up the other way on the tiller. E.G Bow down string up, and pulls down on the bow.
WillS suggests that Pip and Steve say, it is because that was how it was done in the past (Or that's how I'm interpeting the "That's how they started").
I am querying how the heck they know... I don't know of anything in the medieval records, never mind the practice of bow making in Neolithic times.
Mind it's just getting silly as we are discussing heresay about guesswork on a post which is about a third parties work.
Del
PS.
I once heard a drunk man say I was his bestest friend, or my at least Brother said he did... well he said he was my brother, I was also drunk at the time

[WillS]

WillS suggests that Pip and Steve say, it is because that was how it was done in the past (Or that's how I'm interpeting the "That's how they started").

Nope.  Wasn't me.  It was Adam.  I also think Adam meant that it was how Pip and Steve started.  It's also how I got started because it makes far more sense to me to have the bow facing downward, I find it really hard to see a good tiller when the bow is the other way round.

[adb]

Yes, when asked, they both said there was no historical significance to tillering 'upside down.' It was just the way they learned and started, and they carried on with their program.

I learned 'right side up' but I really don't think there's any real difference. Whatever you get used to and as long as your tiller outcome is desirable, who cares. I tried tillering a bow upside down once, but it messed with my head.

I remember asking Steve about the big green background he uses to tiller his bows, and if there was  a reason he used it. He chuckled and said it was formerly a ping pong table that belonged to his son. It was big enough and the right price. Go figure.

[adb]

If there's a hard way to do something, the Brits will find it. OOOooo... did I say that? OMG... you can't say that. 

[Del the cat]

WillS suggests that Pip and Steve say, it is because that was how it was done in the past (Or that's how I'm interpeting the "That's how they started").

Nope.  Wasn't me.  It was Adam.  I also think Adam meant that it was how Pip and Steve started.  It's also how I got started because it makes far more sense to me to have the bow facing downward, I find it really hard to see a good tiller when the bow is the other way round.

Sorry my bad...
Also my missinterpretation of "That's how they started".. I took "they" to mean bowyers in medieval times.
 
Baaaad kitty
I shall go sit on the naughty step.
Del

[WillS]

If there's a hard way to do something, the Brits will find it. OOOooo... did I say that? OMG... you can't say that. 

Ha, you're probably right though...

I think I read somewhere (no idea where) that Pip believes it's important to "feel" the bow moving on the tiller, as compared to the string.  I have to admit, when I put a bow on the tiller, I do it string up and bow down, and before stepping back to winch/pull the rope I exercise the bow by tugging to a given weight or length a few times and you can really feel what the limbs are doing - whether one is stiff or twisting etc.  I guess it's the same as checking it by pretend-shooting, but with a warbow that gets tricky early on, so having the mechanical advantage helps.

[Badger]

   When the scale is hanging it is easier to attach the string to the scale than the bow to the scale. I use my digital scale as a hanging scale and my spring scale I pull down with the string.

[mikekeswick]

The useful thing about doing it upside down is that the bow is freer to move/tip showing imbalances in the tiller compared to it sitting on a shelf where it can only rock and needs a lot of imbalance to do this.
You don't have to have ash of 0.85 sg. If the wood is lower density then make it a little wider. The limiting factor in my eyes is the size of your hands....lower density woods will work but once you start going over 1 1/2 wide at the handle they just aren't nice to shoot.
I bet you that the hazel was nowhere near 0.85sg 
I understand why people think dense wood is the be all and end all but it really isn't. Design, design, design.

[WillS]

I understand why people think dense wood is the be all and end all but it really isn't. Design, design, design.

Good point!  But as you said, it gets to a point where the bow gets super wide.  Remember that Jaro was trying to replicate a Mary Rose bow - same cross section, same dimensions.   That wouldn't have worked with lower density wood.  You can make a heavy bow in almost any design if you're careful - there's a vid on Facebook just recently of Joe shooting a 177# flat bow and a 170# Turkish style bow that he made - but it's keeping the faithful design of the MR bows that is so impressive here, and is what takes so much skill I think.

Dense wood certainly isn't the only factor, but it's required if your dimensions are set, for example when building a replica.  As far as I'm aware the hazel, holly and plum bows these guys are making are all fairly close to the MR bow dimensions.  Otherwise they wouldn't be allowed in the shoots.

[adb]

When it comes to making warbows, I'd rather have a more elastic wood, like yew, than a wood with a high specific gravity.

[WillS]

Oh for sure, but what if you can't get yew?  We know via documentation that bowyers were required to make a certain number of warbows from meane woods for every yew bow, as yew was scarce and expensive, despite being outsourced.  If you can't get yew but you need to make bows of the same draw weight using the same techniques and dimensions (more or less) you need to use the next best bow wood, and the best quality of that wood.

[adb]

WillS suggests that Pip and Steve say, it is because that was how it was done in the past (Or that's how I'm interpeting the "That's how they started").

Nope.  Wasn't me.  It was Adam.  I also think Adam meant that it was how Pip and Steve started.  It's also how I got started because it makes far more sense to me to have the bow facing downward, I find it really hard to see a good tiller when the bow is the other way round.

Sorry my bad...
Also my missinterpretation of "That's how they started".. I took "they" to mean bowyers in medieval times.
 
Baaaad kitty
I shall go sit on the naughty step.
Del

BAD KITTY! No cat nip for you.