Author Topic: Information about the EWBS Welsh class  (Read 5672 times)

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Offline Jules

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Information about the EWBS Welsh class
« on: December 11, 2013, 01:44:03 pm »
Hey there,

I've noticed that there are some EWBS participants active on these forums and I was wondering if someone had some more info about the dimensions and specifications of the Welsh class bow (the EWBS page is still blank and a search here didn't yield a lot of results). Also I was wondering what arrowhead is spoken of in their article about the arrow. I looked it up and got these from the London museum page:

http://collections.museumoflondon.org.uk/Online/object.aspx?objectID=object-29514&start=7&rows=1
http://collections.museumoflondon.org.uk/Online/object.aspx?objectID=object-36398&start=9&rows=1
http://collections.museumoflondon.org.uk/Online/object.aspx?objectID=object-36404&start=4&rows=1

I guess i was wondering which one participants are meant to use. I understand that the class is supposed to be shot only in England on an official EWBS shoot which I intend to do.

Offline WillS

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Re: Information about the EWBS Welsh class
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2013, 05:31:17 pm »
Hi Jules, welcome!

I'll see if I can help out, until some more experienced guys turn up!

Firstly, in regards to your pics, the first one is known as a Tudor Bodkin, and is the head that must be used to arm the EWBS Livery Arrow, as it is a replication of the arrows found on board the Mary Rose, and the arrowhead is similar to one found at Portchester Castle, dating to the same age.

The second picture is a slightly mangled Type 16, a barbed head with the barbs flattened very close to the socket.  This arrow head is usually fitted to the EWBS Standard arrow (also the BL-BS Standard Arrow) along with the Type 10, which is a classic "bodkin" shape, with longer socket and four-sided pointed head.

The third pic I'm not sure about, wouldn't like to say.  It looks a bit like a squashed Tudor Bodkin, but could also be a Towton or Type 10.  Not sure! 

The reason it's tricky is that everybody makes heads differently, as forging is quite a personal skill.  The Type 10s I get from Milos Lasky in Europe look like this:



While Hector Cole's Type 10s look like this:



So a fair bit of variation amongst arrowsmiths!  Doesn't make life easy, but as long as you get your heads made by a well respected smith who understands the limits and legalities of the class you will be fine.

As for the bow, it is the same as the EWBS bow, but only made from indigenous woods.  Here are the specs as listed by the EWBS:

Quote from: The English Warbow Society
The Bow

 The English Warbow was the bow the longbow used in battle by the Plantagenet and Tudor armies of the 14th, 15th and 16th Centuries. The EWBS defines a warbow to be a bow that follows the pattern, profile and tiller of the bows found on the Mary Rose.
 The Society imposes a lower limit on bow draw-weight for adult males (70lb at a measured 32” of draw), although there is no lower weight limit for women, juniors and archers over 60.  In order to encourage beginners, further allowance is made for a new member’s first year.

Mary Rose Class Self yew bows in the “spirit of the original” MR bows:

- No shorter than the shortest MR bow (74” – to be confirmed);
 - May be to any MR bow profile;
 - Heat treatment may be used to straighten a stave but not to induce unnatural reflex (an unbraced bow shall not show any artificially induced reflex);
 - Be full compass in tiller;
 - Within the 5/8, depth/width rule along the length of the bow;
 - Has some profile to the belly of the bow (i.e. not flat bellied); and has no handle grip/covering.

Meane Wood

 Self bows made of other woods available to the medieval bowyer, such as Ash or Elm. In the absence of reliable historical evidence of the dimensions of meane wood warbows, the MR dimensions above are to be used for this class, except:

- Not less than 72” in length; and
 - Heat treatment may be used to straighten a stave or stiffen the belly but not to induce unnatural reflex (the bow must not be reflexed    when unbraced).

 This specification will be revised if period bows of this type are found.

Hope some of that helps?

Offline Jules

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Re: Information about the EWBS Welsh class
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2013, 05:42:00 pm »
Hey WillS,

Thanks for the information so far. I thought the arrowheads looked a bit like tudor bodkins but the museum has them listed as London Museum Type 10 (which the EWBS site lists as the arrowhead needed) so I figured something must have been different about them setting them apart from the tudor bodkin.

As for the bow it's only a wood thing? Well that's easy enough  :)  And would I have use the 'extra' meane wood rule or stick to the Mary Rose specs?

EDIT: and it's suppose to between 95 and 105 pounds right?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 06:08:20 pm by Jules »

Offline WillS

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Re: Information about the EWBS Welsh class
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2013, 06:32:59 pm »
If you've got a good clean stave of indigenous yew, then go for the Mary Rose spec.  Any other wood will be considered meane wood in this case.  Don't worry too much about following exact specs, those specifications tend to be followed anyway if you use a certain wood to make a certain draw weight.  And yes, I think 105# is the max for Welsh class but again you should def check with somebody like Jeremy Spencer before ordering/making a bow!

Offline Jules

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Re: Information about the EWBS Welsh class
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2013, 08:08:05 pm »
Ah, so Yew is allowed then.
I'll try and contact him (Yeomanbowman right?) about the specific specifications :)

Offline WillS

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Re: Information about the EWBS Welsh class
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2013, 08:50:16 pm »
As long as it's European yew, yeah.  Not imported from America of course.  Ideally Welsh yew, but I guess English is fine (it's all the same stuff really!!) One thing I'd be interested in hearing from Jeremy is whether Italian yew is allowed.  I can't see why it wouldnt be, but ya never know!

To be honest, if you have a stave of yew and you make a bow between 95 and 105lbs, keep it longer than 72" and make it somewhere between 33 and 40inches wide at the handle with a nice rounded belly shape but not a deep D section like a Victorian bow you'll be perfect for passing any specifications!  Tiller it out to 28" and shoot it at 32" and you'll be fine.  Simple, eh? ;)

Offline Yeomanbowman

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Re: Information about the EWBS Welsh class
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2013, 04:25:17 pm »
Hi All
The 'Welsh Class' is not the creation of either Warbow Wales or myself.   Whilst I was a founding member of the EWBS and had a hand in the specs of the arrows and bows, the 'Welsh Class' was after my involvement.  I believe it to have been created by a very talented bowyer called Jaro Patrina who sadly no longer posts here. However, whilst I admire his craftsmanship and knowledge of history, I have to say that there's absolutely no evidence that Welsh bows of the early middle ages were under 110lbs, had a Flemish twist looped and timberhitch string (you can use fastflite in the WC), were over 72" or had a rounded belly.  It's all supposition at best.

Offline WillS

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Re: Information about the EWBS Welsh class
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2013, 04:57:46 pm »
Hi Jeremy, thanks for clearing some of that up!

Are those specifications actually required then?  Or would for example a 115lb bow, or a bow without a rounded belly be allowed to shoot in the Welsh Class?

Offline Yeomanbowman

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Re: Information about the EWBS Welsh class
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2013, 06:10:11 pm »
Hi Will,

It was the case but I can't say what it is now?
What I can say is that Warbow Wales allows all weights of bow and insists on natural strings for its distance shooting.  We hold a distance achievement for each bow wood used.

Cheers,
Jeremy

Offline Jules

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Re: Information about the EWBS Welsh class
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2013, 08:04:28 pm »
Thanks for the information Jeremy!

So I guess it's still a little vague what the requirements for the EWBS Welsh bow are (were getting close to the full picture though). And let's just assume a forged type 10 short bodkin is used and my links in the OP are rubbish examples :D

Maybe I should try a bit closer to the source then and contact some of the regulars of the EWBS shoots?

Offline WillS

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Re: Information about the EWBS Welsh class
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2013, 08:08:19 pm »
Are you a member yourself Jules? If you join the society you get full access to the official EWBS forum, and you could ask there.