Trying to set up a router jig for shafts, not working really...

[toomanyknots]

I am using a cheap router (the cheap 60 dollar ryobi from HD) mounted to a home made table, and a 1/2" straight bit I believe. All my attempts are either all chewed up, or smoke through the holes and won't go through. My infeed holes are 1/2", my outfeed holes are 3/8". The guide holes are made of hard maple (would using ipe be better/smoke less?). I cut my stock just under 3/8", to where it is snug but not too tight in the in feed holes. I don't have my infeed and the first outfeed holes right up against the bit, they are about 1 1/2" away from it or so I think, should I have them right up against the bit? Not sure exactly what I am doing wrong...

[Jim Davis]

Too many, your poor results are because you haven't found the sweet spot in the distance the cutter is from the shaft. When things are smoking, it's too far away. When the shaft is all chewed up, the cutter is too close.

The difference between smoking and perfect can be as little as .003". Unless you have a dial indicator set up to measure how far you move things, it can be real shot in the dark.

But keep at it. Your "cheap" router will make perfect shafts once you get things adjusted.

My first setup was all wood, like yours. It made great shafts. I only got more complicated because I wanted to be able to  change sizes of shaft quickly and without trial and error in spades. If I were only making one size, I'd still have my wood setup.

Jim Davis

[toomanyknots]

Thank you. I guess I will keep at it.  Is a straight bit ok to use? Are there better bits to use?

[Jim Davis]

A straight bit is the best to use because as the wood rotates toward it, the cutter begins cutting at a tangent to the initial diameter (a circle that passes through the corners of the square stock in this case) and finishes by cutting at a tangent  to the finished size.

A  concave bit would be cutting a bigger bite at the beginning.

Here's  another illustration. It was in a Fine Woodworking  magazine iirc, maybe 20 years ago. It specifies a straight bit.

Jim

[Buckeye Guy]

Rigidity is key !
Your guides do need to be close to the bit  so as to eliminate as much deflection as possible !
Make sure the bit is sharp !
The hard maple blocks should be fine !
You will do some playing around with the guide blocks as you evolve into this like hole size, number of blocks, metal ones to burnish,etc, but you are fine for starting up !

[toomanyknots]

Rigidity is key !
Your guides do need to be close to the bit  so as to eliminate as much deflection as possible !
Make sure the bit is sharp !
The hard maple blocks should be fine !
You will do some playing around with the guide blocks as you evolve into this like hole size, number of blocks, metal ones to burnish,etc, but you are fine for starting up !

Thanks Buckeye. I'll make a couple more blocks, or move the ones I have up real close to the bit. I've been playing around with the pencil sharpener jigs for a while, but I always get tear out on them with certain woods, so I thought the router jig would fix that. I'd love to try the expensive veritas jig with the arrow inserts, but than again I would love to have 300 bucks I could blow on whatever, haha. I wonder if I would still get tear out with doug fir with the expensive dowel jig...

[Jim Davis]

Rigidity is key !
Your guides do need to be close to the bit  so as to eliminate as much deflection as possible !
Make sure the bit is sharp !
The hard maple blocks should be fine !
You will do some playing around with the guide blocks as you evolve into this like hole size, number of blocks, metal ones to burnish,etc, but you are fine for starting up !

Only thing I  would add is that you don't need all the exclamation marks. Be calm. One will  do!


Toomany, can you post a photo of your setup?

Jim

[papoints]

I made a jig up on my band saw with less trial and error.  Made the shafts and they are still sitting in the corner....lol.

[toomanyknots]

Rigidity is key !
Your guides do need to be close to the bit  so as to eliminate as much deflection as possible !
Make sure the bit is sharp !
The hard maple blocks should be fine !
You will do some playing around with the guide blocks as you evolve into this like hole size, number of blocks, metal ones to burnish,etc, but you are fine for starting up !

Only thing I  would add is that you don't need all the exclamation marks. Be calm. One will  do!


Toomany, can you post a photo of your setup?

Jim

Haha, sure, give me one sec...

[toomanyknots]

I made a jig up on my band saw with less trial and error.  Made the shafts and they are still sitting in the corner....lol.

i was thinkin of doing that, but I thought I was crazy! 

Edit: Like this, hard to tell but the finished product doesn't really look too bad?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWiSjKngnCU

[Jim Davis]

i was thinkin of doing that, but I thought I was crazy! 

Edit: Like this, hard to tell but the finished product doesn't really look too bad?:

That's a very ingenious setup. I'd try it if I didn't know how well the router works. Can't tell anything about the finish.  But think of this: Have you ever seen a band sawn surface as smooth as a routed surface?

Then too, the diameter is totally the result of the skill with which the hole is made  in proximity to the  blade kerf.  Totally unadjustible if it's not right.

When the router setup is adjusted right,  the shafts will be burnished as slick as if they were varnished.

One  thing not mentioned yet is that the pivot of the arm that holds the blocks should be as close to the bit as practical. That way the far end moves much more than the input bock when you adjust the cut size.

Also, way up above, you mentioned that you are making 3/8" shafts. WHY? You can just as easily make 11/32". Veritas-type cutters are limited to the sizes the maker provides, but with the router setup, you can make any diameter you want. I have bushings for 1/4" to 23/64".

Jim

[toomanyknots]

i was thinkin of doing that, but I thought I was crazy! 

Edit: Like this, hard to tell but the finished product doesn't really look too bad?:

That's a very ingenious setup. I'd try it if I didn't know how well the router works. Can't tell anything about the finish.  But think of this: Have you ever seen a band sawn surface as smooth as a routed surface?

Then too, the diameter is totally the result of the skill with which the hole is made  in proximity to the  blade kerf.  Totally unadjustible if it's not right.

When the router setup is adjusted right,  the shafts will be burnished as slick as if they were varnished.

One  thing not mentioned yet is that the pivot of the arm that holds the blocks should be as close to the bit as practical. That way the far end moves much more than the input bock when you adjust the cut size.

Also, way up above, you mentioned that you are making 3/8" shafts. WHY? You can just as easily make 11/32". Veritas-type cutters are limited to the sizes the maker provides, but with the router setup, you can make any diameter you want. I have bushings for 1/4" to 23/64".

Jim

Good point about the bandsaw finish. At this point I'd be happy with anything halfway decent without tear out though. I am not having the best of luck. Seeing as I have no idea what I doing as well, I figure it could be anything, which is kinda frustrating. I think for one my infeed holes are too small at 1/2" for 3/8" finished diameter. I was using 3/8" square stock that was rounded a bit at the corners to fit in the 1/2" but still I end up with squarish looking dowels (with the chewed up chatter all over em, plus they are still smoking and burnt). I was thinking of trying to widen my holes to 9/16, and try bigger stock. If I get this working at 3/8", and can get a hang of it, than I will try to get more exact arrow diameters. Right now I can't get crap. I will take your advice and change the pivot to close to the bit on the other end. Here are some pictures:

The infeed hole to the right I nocked off a minute ago, so that I could widen the other two to 9/16 when I pick up a 9/16 bit later on today...







Nut to allow the thing to pivot:



Made my own socket because I didn't have one:

[Jim Davis]

Good point about the bandsaw finish. At this point I'd be happy with anything halfway decent without tear out though. I am not having the best of luck. Seeing as I have no idea what I doing as well, I figure it could be anything, which is kinda frustrating. I think for one my infeed holes are too small at 1/2" for 3/8" finished diameter. I was using 3/8" square stock that was rounded a bit at the corners to fit in the 1/2" but still I end up with squarish looking dowels (with the chewed up chatter all over em, plus they are still smoking and burnt). I was thinking of trying to widen my holes to 9/16, and try bigger stock. If I get this working at 3/8", and can get a hang of it, than I will try to get more exact arrow diameters. Right now I can't get crap. I will take your advice and change the pivot to close to the bit on the other end. Here are some pictures:

The infeed hole to the right I nocked off a minute ago, so that I could widen the other two to 9/16 when I pick up a 9/16 bit later on today...

  Diagonal measure across the corners of a 3/8" square is .530. You need a 33/64 bit, which would be .516.

Nut to allow the thing to pivot:

Your pivot is almost infinitely too far from the bit (here's a place for an exclamation point!)[/quote]

Made my own socket because I didn't have one:


[/quote]

You are working WAY too hard. Take a 9/16" 3/8's drive socket and put the square wood in the square hole. Put a 3/8" bolt head in the hex  part of the socket. Chuck the bolt in your drill and make dowels. When you have pushed the wood as close to the router bit as the drill can come, unchuck  the bolt and chuck  the drill on the other end of the dowel and  pull it on through. No need to reverse rotation. The router doesn't  care.

[toomanyknots]

Your pivot is almost infinitely too far from the bit (here's a place for an exclamation point!)

haha,  . Thanks for the tips.

[Buckeye Guy]

I don't like the veritas unit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Still tears out on some woods and I like to taper things so not the ticket for me .
These days if I want shafts from boards I use the lathe and sandpaper !

As for to many exclamation points ! Here are a few more  ! !  ! !  !  !  ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Just in case I missed some !

Sorry folks I can be a little ornery from time to time !
Thanks for noticing my lack of skill for writing !
Have fun
The worthless old nut !