what weight,and broadhead size

[Renacs]

What weight arrow and broadhead do you hunt whitetails with? Do you believe that a heavier broadhead  leads to better penatration, from a typical huntn weight stick bow?

[JW_Halverson]

If you do a little research online on broadhead penetration and lethality, the name Ashby is going to pop up.  Ignore most everything else and look into his research.  He has documented thousands of archery kills on big game in Africa and has literally written the book on what kills best. 

Some of the highlights:
1) 3:1 ratio, length to width
2) single blade broadheads penetrate universally better
3) Replacement bladed broadheads fail >50%, mechanicals are even worse when impacting heavy bone.
4) Single bevel on the cutting edges matched to the fletching induced rotation of the arrow increase dramatically the degree of penetration, but will reduce penetration if it does NOT complement the rotation of the arrow
5) There is no corrolation between number of blades on the broadhead with the blood trail (THAT one surprised the heck out of me)
6) steel composition should be hard enough that the blade will snap before it will bend...bent broadhead tips ruin penetration.
7) Heavier broadheads get better penetration, high FOC (forward of center) amplifies penetration on the heavier broadheads. (In other words the further forward the balance point of an arrow, the better it sticks in!)
SHARPER! SHARPER! SHARPER!

[Danzn Bar]

If you do a little research online on broadhead penetration and lethality, the name Ashby is going to pop up.  Ignore most everything else and look into his research.  He has documented thousands of archery kills on big game in Africa and has literally written the book on what kills best. 

Some of the highlights:
1) 3:1 ratio, length to width
2) single blade broadheads penetrate universally better
3) Replacement bladed broadheads fail >50%, mechanicals are even worse when impacting heavy bone.
4) Single bevel on the cutting edges matched to the fletching induced rotation of the arrow increase dramatically the degree of penetration, but will reduce penetration if it does NOT complement the rotation of the arrow
5) There is no corrolation between number of blades on the broadhead with the blood trail (THAT one surprised the heck out of me)
6) steel composition should be hard enough that the blade will snap before it will bend...bent broadhead tips ruin penetration.
7) Heavier broadheads get better penetration, high FOC (forward of center) amplifies penetration on the heavier broadheads. (In other words the further forward the balance point of an arrow, the better it sticks in!)
SHARPER! SHARPER! SHARPER!

Excellent ..............what more could be said.
Thank you JW
DBar

[JW_Halverson]

If you do a little research online on broadhead penetration and lethality, the name Ashby is going to pop up.  Ignore most everything else and look into his research.  He has documented thousands of archery kills on big game in Africa and has literally written the book on what kills best. 

Some of the highlights:
1) 3:1 ratio, length to width
2) single blade broadheads penetrate universally better
3) Replacement bladed broadheads fail >50%, mechanicals are even worse when impacting heavy bone.
4) Single bevel on the cutting edges matched to the fletching induced rotation of the arrow increase dramatically the degree of penetration, but will reduce penetration if it does NOT complement the rotation of the arrow
5) There is no corrolation between number of blades on the broadhead with the blood trail (THAT one surprised the heck out of me)
6) steel composition should be hard enough that the blade will snap before it will bend...bent broadhead tips ruin penetration.
7) Heavier broadheads get better penetration, high FOC (forward of center) amplifies penetration on the heavier broadheads. (In other words the further forward the balance point of an arrow, the better it sticks in!)
SHARPER! SHARPER! SHARPER!

Excellent ..............what more could be said.
Thank you JW
DBar

What more...?  You obviously haven't read much of Ashby's research!  That guy has more scientifically backed solid research than you can shake a stick at.  Everything from how tapered shafts increase penetration to the composition of the finish on the shafts itself (some finishes actually improve the slipperiness of blood, again increasing penetration), 650 grains arrow weight seems to be the threshhold for best penetration, and get this: he recommends no really close shots because the arrow paradox works against penetration! Sorry Pappy!

Ashby's research into arrow penetration and lethality is some fascinating reading.  Much of it contradicts what you read in advertising seen in most archery magazines.  Since he is "boots on the ground" and has no axe to grind, I tend to believe him over the folks trying to sell me the latest Rage in broadheads.

[Renacs]

 I have read through some of his reports, but I wanted to see the avetage P.A's set up.

[Buckeye Guy]

Thanks for posting the highlight JW !!
Some folks get a little to techy even if something is true does not make it necessarily practical or Gospel !
As an example the close shots not getting as much penetration , most of us ain't shooting elephants so we need to not penetrate to far into the tree or rock after it exits the whitetail deer !   But ratios, weight foreword, and such is good info for all !
Flint points rotation is generally base on left handed or right handed Knappers !
Lots of fun stuff to play with !
Guy

[Grasshopper Mouse]

A 125 grain broadhead on a parallel wood shaft with the arrow weighing 9-10 grains per pound of draw weight has gone right through an awful lot of North American deer long before the good doctor ever thought of doing his research.
His research did not cause whitetails to grow shoulder bones to rival cape buffalo.

Guy

[Buckeye Guy]

Ok weedhopper

one Guy on here is about all folks can handle !!

Welcome anyway Guy
Guy

[PEARL DRUMS]

A 125 grain broadhead on a parallel wood shaft with the arrow weighing 9-10 grains per pound of draw weight has gone right through an awful lot of North American deer long before the good doctor ever thought of doing his research.
His research did not cause whitetails to grow shoulder bones to rival cape buffalo.

Guy

Yup

[Pappy]

I usually shoot a 160 head and 525 to 600 grain arrow,out of 45/50 lb bow.
Don't worry much about penetration,about 6 inches is all you need on what I hunt. As far as father shots getting better penetration,ya maybe if you hit the right spot and I hit the right spot better if I am closer. 
 Pappy

[JW_Halverson]

I usually shoot a 160 head and 525 to 600 grain arrow,out of 45/50 lb bow.
Don't worry much about penetration,about 6 inches is all you need on what I hunt. As far as father shots getting better penetration,ya maybe if you hit the right spot and I hit the right spot better if I am closer. 
 Pappy

Nobody can argue with the meat in your freezer!  Ashby's point (pun intended) on close shots getting less penetration are based on how the arrow is still recovering from paradox and how the arrow is not exactly established in flying in a straight line.  Of course, the more center shot a bow is, the less paradox getting around the grip area there is, etc.

A 125 grain broadhead on a parallel wood shaft with the arrow weighing 9-10 grains per pound of draw weight has gone right through an awful lot of North American deer long before the good doctor ever thought of doing his research.
His research did not cause whitetails to grow shoulder bones to rival cape buffalo.

Guy

Much of his research is on whitetail sized African antelope as well.  Try as we might, sometimes we hit the scapula or the shoulder bones on whitetail and injure an animal that escapes.  Heavier arrows can compensate for that.  Ultimately, it is a game of numbers, tradeoffs and the like.

For myself, I'm getting my best arrow flights and best accuracy shooting 725 grains total weight arrows.  They are straight tapered ash shafts behind 125 grain single blade, single bevel broadheads.  The broadheads are Tuskers that I got in trade here.  The Tuskers are made in Australia, I think.  My next set of hunting arrows will be tapered shafts, since they seem to recover paradox faster, are more weight forward, and bows seem to be less finicky about spine with them. 

Some day I should get on the hill cane bandwagon, I keep hearing lotsa good anecdotal evidence on them.

[Renacs]

Thanks, what brought this question on, eas that I bow that I made for a buddy. Arrowed a large boddied buck at ~10yrds. He only got about 3” penation and left deer with a gimp leg. The bow is a 50# Osage selfbow with 30”poc shafts from 3 rivers with 125gr. Zwicky double bevel head. The tip curld. After talkin to the hunter. He believes now that he hit the shoulder. And the initial impact did nock the deer down at first

[Pappy]

Renacs he probably did hit the big shoulder bone and it takes a lot to penetrate that,the good news is the deer will be fine[most likely] and just a gimp as you say,if he had of penetrated more or broke the shoulder he still probably  wouldn't have recovered the deer and the deer would have been much worse off,that being said ,nothing compensates for good arrow placement.  JW not to hijack the thread but how far does it take for arrow paradox to recover,I would think just a yard or so out of the bow if it is all set up right If not you would see bad arrow flight,I don't want to see any kick out of the bow and nothing but nock as my arrow flyes, won't settle for anything less for a hunting arrow.
   Pappy

[artcher1]

I had a friend that hit an 8pt in the shoulder using a 60# compound and he stated the arrow bounced off. So like Pappy said, arrow placement is the key.

On another note, I've seen arrows hit the off shoulder after going through the fore shoulder and bounce back giving to appearance of little penetration. Something to consider...........Art

[Ryan_Gill_HuntPrimitive]

Well I will throw my preferred specs into the mix. I like a mid 50's- 60# bow 500+ grain cane arrow (finished weight) including a 70-90 grain, 1 inch wide, very sharp, stone point. Last several deer I have shot have seen total penetration.  Some with complete pass through's and others with equal or better arrow out both sides.    On the primitive aspect of things, I prefer to make my arrows first and make good guesses as to the weights and then weigh them on a grains scale as a control in order to gain knowledge.  My goal is to make each arrow as heavy as possible using only primitive materials and a small enough head to ensure good penetration every time. By cutting right behind a node in the cane I can get the longest section of "tube" possible. Then I fill the tube with split pieces of cane and glue. The split pieces of cane I have found add about 20-30 grains to the end of the arrow on average. Some times I use a foreshaft to get the same results, some times slightly heavier.