Seasoning wood

[dwardo]

I find it hard to believe there has not been a scientific study into timber as it ages? I dont mean in relation to bow making but more for the building trade or something similar.

I dont think I have ever used timber that has been much over a year old so cannot comment. So far as my limited experience goes if its dry its dry. I take all of my wood down to bow dimensions within a few weeks like most and season from there. Can be anything from a couple of months to a year to finish. A lot depends on the weather and how many roughed out bows I can store indoors before the missus starts hassling me

[Buckeye Guy]

  Guy, like a lot of things in bow making. Not really about taking sides as much as it is realizing a lot of the old ways were established for a good reason. Maybe not all of them but it sure pays to stay open minded. Looking at ancient designs from any culture you want to pick out clearly shows that humans did a good job designing bows long before the internet. They usually worked with a smaller number of materials and became very familiar with how they work best.

Steve I did not mean to divide but to say where I view from.
I want to hear from the youngsters !
And those that heat treat cause I see some potential in the learning of things I may have been resistant to !
I have had some issues with wanting to guard against the sickening infiltration of gimmickry that hit me so hard in days gone by, I may finally be recovering from all that ! 
I cherish this younger group coming up behind us and wish them the best !
Last spring at the Marshall Primitive Rendezvous was a real healing time for me , with so many of the younger Bowyers showing up and showing such potential .
 I may have been forever changed !
Thank you to all of them !!
Guy

[George Tsoukalas]

I do not think it matters at all whether a stave is seasoned or quick dried. Not at all. Nada. Tipota. Methen.

In fact, since woods decompose with time  seasoning may be a disadvantage.
I have made a lot of board bows over the course of these years. Really, they shoot just as well as bows  from seasoned staves. Boards are kiln dried.
Jawge

[George Tsoukalas]

Same for arrows. I have used kiln dried white pine a lot. I wish I kept records. But those pine shafts have been durable.
Jawge

[steve b.]

In my experience the majority of well made bows that have broken, were older bows.  My impression is that wood 'matures' or peaks in quality, in regards to bowmaking, like humans or animals, as they age.

When green, wood doesn't make a good bow and when old it has lost elasticity and begun to decay.  We might be talking very small amounts that no one would even notice.

At the same time, my experience with everything else in life tells me that just because you might be able to take  stave and flash dry it without it checking and have a bow in a week doesn't mean its at its "best", whatever that means.  I'd rather slow dry the stave, but not over a year.  I'd rather have a stave that was dried for 6 months than one that was "kiln" dried, or one that was sitting around for 5 years.

[PEARL DRUMS]

Interesting spin Steve.

[PatM]

The old time flight archers insisted that their best material came from Osage seasoned for at least 10 years. Since we haven't come within 200 yards of their records, I'm going to say that they were onto something.
 The trouble with people insisting that it doesn't matter if wood is kiln dried or seasoned is that they  have settled  for "good enough" and there is really nothing wrong with that as long as they don't insist that others don't continue to strive for perfection.

[George Tsoukalas]

Pat, exactly my point. My board bows have shot just as well or better than bows from seasoned staves. Just my experience.
I don,t remember quick drying a log stave except for a maple stave that became a bow in 2 weeks of attic drying.
Not good enough. Better.
Others can arrive at their own conclusion. Just be honest.
Often myths are handed down and become like gospel.
Best to evaluate, experiment and decide.
Jawge

[akswift]

 Experienced arrow makers that comment seem have a more decided preference towards well aged stock. Could there be a difference between arrows made from heartwood or sapwood? What is the difference between a piece of doug fir salvaged from a 100 year old house and a piece of doug fir cut from from the heart of a 100 year old tree? Does it need to be properly dried before it can begin seasoning? Badger's observation about the seasoning progressing after the bow is made makes sense if one considers that bows are often made with a back of fresh sapwood. I find it interesting that kiln drying is adequate for some builders. does kiln drying accelerate seasoning in ways that take longer if the wood is just parked on rack? 
I am with Dwardo in that
           "I find it hard to believe there has not been a scientific study into timber as it ages?"

There are many types of "kiln" drying and professional dryors have developed different schedules and processes to provide wood for different uses. Could there be ways to bring out the best in bow wood without the wait?

[Badger]

  One good example is the bow I broke the broadhead record with this year. The first year it was shot I got about 206 yds, the next year 210 yards and this year 221 yards. Each year I had to scrape it down a tad to make weight as it got stronger just sitting. I wouldn't call that hard evidence. But it is enough to get my interest.

[Don Case]

What is the difference between a piece of doug fir salvaged from a 100 year old house and a piece of doug fir cut from from the heart of a 100 year old tree?

One has been dry for a 100 years and one has been wet(ish) for 100 years.

[crooketarrow]

  I truely beleive the slow old seasoned staves makes far better bow.
 Hard woods like osage has a lot of oils and risins. That take longer to season out evenly. Where most white woods can season past there prime. Whats that age I've never kept any records of this.
  But I have seen osage after seasoned a couple years pick up wait as it ages. Untill it gets olderrrrrrr then I stops this.
 I know this from building bows thats only been seasoned say a few years.They do pick up a pound or so as hey season. AT THE SAME TIME I'VE CUT AND SEASONED 100'S OSAGE STAVES THAT BEEN SEASONED 15 TO OVER 20 YEAR OLD. These bows will not change in weight as the get older. Now whats the break over age this happens. I've never kept track.
  I can say this also when a osage stave slowly seasons. It seasons evenly. When you heat treat  no matter the age your changeing wood cells unevenly. Woods like osage it can take the change with stride (SOME). If it's done slowly and evenly. It shorten the life not as much or as bad as some woods . Some woods exspecially some white woods this helps shorted the life of the bow. alot.
    Personally a well slowly seasoned stave in a out of the weather place. Will out last out shoot a heat treated bow everytime. As for board bows I don't know never built one. Nor have ever built a kil dryed stave. So I can't put any input to that part.

  I do know back in the early 90's I had a friend will hunting his farm in KAS. pull a corner post of osage out of the ground. His great grandfather planed it around 105 years before. After I cleaned off the 2,3 inchs rot I got 6 staves. One did'nt make it but all 5 of the others were really fast,snappy shooters.
  Only one have I had the chance to see one come back.. I made it for a old man in his 60's at the time. 6 Years later he scent it back saying it picked up to much weight for him to pull.
 I checked it it had lost a pound or so not gained.
 I guess he just got old.

  I think you all are missing the point here. There not talking glass or compounds bows there old wooden self bows. No need to care about this stuff if it dos'nt work out build another.
 You think the indains sat around the camp fire and talked this %$#@.

[PatM]

   Personally a well slowly seasoned stave in a out of the weather place. Will out last out shoot a heat treated bow everytime.
 You think the indains sat around the camp fire and talked this %$#@.

I doubt a non heat treated bow is going to outshoot a heat treated one every time, especially if the heat treated one has an enhanced profile.
 You bet the Indians did. How else would knowledge and tradition get passed on?

[osage outlaw]

http://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/bitstream/2123/581/1/adt-NU20041011.13343802chapter1.pdf

[Eric Garza]

In my experience the majority of well made bows that have broken, were older bows.  My impression is that wood 'matures' or peaks in quality, in regards to bowmaking, like humans or animals, as they age...

Not to open yet another Pandora's Box, but I wonder if there's a difference between aging wood known for rot resistance (osage heartwood, yew, juniper and eastern red cedar heartwood) and less rot-resistant wood. Maybe sapwood does peak in performance after a shorter period of aging before it begins to deteriorate, while rot resistant heartwoods stretch that time period out dramatically. The idea that anyone can take a fence post that's 50+ years old and turn it into a well-performing bow seems to suggest that there's something to the idea of long-term seasoning. It's just a matter of figuring out exactly what's going on, and to what degree it bolsters performance.

On the other hand, if George uses primarily white wood boards to make bows, I can see how his proclamations could be accurate within that context. Especially if he uses a good design and shoots his bows side-by-side against seasoned staves made into bows of sub-optimal design.