Author Topic: The nerve of some people (Warning: rant)  (Read 18551 times)

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Offline Pappy

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Re: The nerve of some people (Warning: rant)
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2013, 12:02:22 pm »
Slippery slope here so I will bow out. ;)
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Offline Dharma

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Re: The nerve of some people (Warning: rant)
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2013, 12:06:10 pm »
Mike, I must respectfully disagree. No one knows what happened to Neanderthal and science has not proven any of my theories as being wrong. It is more than possible disease wiped them out as I said. We know from our own world history what happens when a culture with access to superior weaponry encounters one without. Not to mention the disease factor. If Neanderthal had no immunity from smallpox, for example, it could have wiped them out by the droves. At least a third of a population will die during a smallpox outbreak. Now, if your best hunters die, what happens to the rest?

Good science does not state things to be completely wrong if there is no proof that it is, in fact, wrong. Science is not perfect, either, I must point out. Indeed, science has given us wonderful things like computers and the internet. But let's not forget how the internet came to be. It was originally a classified project from DOD and DARPA to provide a means of sharing vital information in the aftermath of a cataclysmic nuclear war between us and the Soviets. Much of our computer technology came as the result of needing such computers to coordinate the launches of our ICBMs from silos spread out across the country based on orders from NORAD being carried out within minutes. They needed "instant communication" in such a war. And what are the causes and conditions of such an event happening? Because science gave us nuclear weapons in the first place. Science also gave us VX nerve gas. Science isn't as far-looking as it claims to be because it never asked the questions: Is developing these weapons skilful? Is this mindful of what humanity will do with such technology? We are also on the brink of DNA being used to discriminate against people and it's already being used to try and "tailor" children to have certain traits. This is the stalking horse of another thing that science once did, which is eugenics. My point? Science has quite a few flaws and if one practices deep looking, it becomes very clear what those flaws are. Science does not practice deep looking because if it did, it would realize that it is responsible for some rather horrific things and still is. Thus, it would not assume itself to be always correct simply because it is not relying on a cultural religious structure or mythos to explain things. Evolution happens, but we don't know why in some cases. There are causes and conditions attached to all things.

My last point is, there are a lot of mistaken impressions about Neanderthal. But the science of the day is where these mistaken impressions originated. Causes and conditions attached to the mistaken theories originate from science itself. So if science wishes to correct itself, it cannot, therefore, assume itself to be right in any case at any time until it can prove what it says. I do not necessarily believe Cro Magnon engaged in an extermination policy against Neanderthal. But if I look deeply into history, I can see that this is a possibility since this very thing has happened before on this planet when an advanced culture encounters one who is not. Many times, in fact. And very recently. I can also see that disease wiped out a number of civilizations that had no immunities. Humanity has still not learned how to use science skilfully and with mindfulness of future consequences. So, we need to investigate science itself as science investigates things.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 12:24:54 pm by Dharma »
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Offline Mike_H

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Re: The nerve of some people (Warning: rant)
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2013, 12:17:10 pm »
Not quite, Pappy.  Science is based on observation of the natural world and working out the hows and whys of it.  Evolution is stood for 150 years and it's not gonna get debunked because it explains the how and why of species diversification. I accept it, there is no belief when there is empirical evidence to back it up.  There is an answer, many just refuse to accept it on principle that it clashes with belief.  I equate it to dinosaur with feather.  I don't like it, but I cannot deny the fossil evidence, so I just have to accept it.  But that is far besides the point and we got off on a tangent.
 

not sure i can agree with you there. We don't have substantial proof to prove that evolution is true or not, not on a macroscopic level anyway. What the theory of evolution is is merely an extrapolation of what could be. there are so many possibilities that its just insane to think that this is the guaranteed method, its a possibility and we should consider the possibility, but we should also be ready to consider other possibilities if they arise.

There is a tremendous amount of fossil evidence as well as observed speciation as well as genetic evidence.  Yes, we have seen it happen, it is there.  The evidence is there, evolution is hard fact with in science.  Much of medical science is based on evolutionary biology.  The fact is that nothing else proposed explains species diversification as well as darwinian natural selection.  It has stood the test of time and peer review.  The only thing that is in debate is the mechanism as to what causes evolutionary change.

Offline ionicmuffin

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Re: The nerve of some people (Warning: rant)
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2013, 12:23:55 pm »
That evidence as i said before is allowing us to extrapolate. We don't KNOW, we can make educated guesses, but the fact remains that none of us were there back then, so we cant be 100% possessive, just like all the scientists of the world thought the world was flat so the same thing could be said about evolution. Im not saying its false, but im also saying that its not proven true.
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Offline Mike_H

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Re: The nerve of some people (Warning: rant)
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2013, 12:32:14 pm »
Mike, I must respectfully disagree. No one knows what happened to Neanderthal and science has not proven any of my theories as being wrong. It is more than possible disease wiped them out as I said. We know from our own world history what happens when a culture with access to superior weaponry encounters one without. Not to mention the disease factor. If Neanderthal had no immunity from smallpox, for example, it could have wiped them out by the droves. At least a third of a population will die during a smallpox outbreak. Now, if your best hunters die, what happens to the rest?

One thing you are forgetting is that it can go the other way.  Modern man could have gotten and neanderthal disease and got nearly wiped out.  But the evidence shows that did not happen.  Also, if memory serves, the H. neanderthalensis decline was before the appearance of modern humans in Europe so that right there disproves the disease hypothesis.

Good science does not state things to be completely wrong if there is no proof that it is, in fact, wrong. Science is not perfect, either, I must point out. Indeed, science has given us wonderful things like computers and the internet. But let's not forget how the internet came to be. It was originally a classified project from DOD and DARPA to provide a means of sharing vital information in the aftermath of a cataclysmic nuclear war between us and the Soviets. And what are the causes and conditions of such an event happening? Because science gave us nuclear weapons in the first place. Science also gave us VX nerve gas. Science isn't as far-looking as it claims to be because it never asked the questions: Is developing these weapons skilful? Is this mindful of what humanity will do with such technology? We are also on the brink of DNA being used to discriminate against people and it's already being used to try and "tailor" children to have certain traits. This is the stalking horse of another thing that science once did, which is eugenics. My point? Science has quite a few flaws and if one practices deep looking, it becomes very clear what those flaws are. Science does not practice deep looking because if it did, it would realize that it is responsible for some rather horrific things and still is. Thus, it would not assume itself to be always correct simply because it is not relying on a cultural religious structure or mythos to explain things. Evolution happens, but we don't know why in some cases. There are causes and conditions attached to all things.

You cannot blame the tool for what the person has done.  Science did nothing, some bad people used it for bad things.  Science is a tool, not a living entity.  There are many mindful people looking into the ethics of many of the new technologies.  That is your deep looking.  Ethical science.  There many technologies that are banned in many countries based on ethics, including human cloning.

My last point is, there are a lot of mistaken impressions about Neanderthal. But the science of the day is where these mistaken impressions originated. Causes and conditions attached to the mistaken theories originate from science itself. So if science wishes to correct itself, it cannot, therefore, assume itself to be right in any case at any time until it can prove what it says. I do not necessarily believe Cro Magnon engaged in an extermination policy against Neanderthal. But if I look deeply into history, I can see that this is a possibility since this very thing has happened before on this planet when an advanced culture encounters one who is not. Many times, in fact. And very recently. I can also see that disease wiped out a number of civilizations that had no immunities. Humanity has still not learned how to use science skilfully and with mindfulness of future consequences. So, we need to investigate science itself as science investigates things.

The view in the video is a rehash of the 19th/early 20th century view that was rooted in racism.  That's all.  Modern research is bringing new evidence to light about how they lived, looked and  interacted.  Yes, some speculation must be made as we do not have everything in the fossil record.  But we can use our own behavior and that of our closest living relatives, the chimpanzee, to fill in the gaps as well as genetic research.

Offline Mike_H

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Re: The nerve of some people (Warning: rant)
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2013, 12:37:34 pm »
That evidence as i said before is allowing us to extrapolate. We don't KNOW, we can make educated guesses, but the fact remains that none of us were there back then, so we cant be 100% possessive, just like all the scientists of the world thought the world was flat so the same thing could be said about evolution. Im not saying its false, but im also saying that its not proven true.

Actually, no one thought the world was flat.  That was taken from a book written in the 19th century on Atlantis.  If you read the literature of the time (medieval) they do state the world was round.  Heck, the Greeks even calculated the circumference pretty dang accurately.

We can use genetic data from mitochondrial DNA and the rate at which it changes to get dates on how far back the common ancestor of us and chimps lived.  The evidence is solid.  Some people just won't accept it based on religious belief and biased against science.

Offline Dharma

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Re: The nerve of some people (Warning: rant)
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2013, 12:42:34 pm »
Mike, something I wish to point out. Much of medical science today is not driven by evolutionary biology, but on profit margin. Science is wilfully neglecting the evolution of diseases becoming antibiotic resistant to instead concentrate on "lifestyle diseases" generally cured by proper diet and exercise. Science cannot have it both ways. It cannot ignore rapidly evolving "superflus" in order to devote its attention to Restless Leg Syndrome.

I must disagree about science not being responsible for the acts of humans using the technology it provides. All of the scientists on the Manhattan Project knew what they were doing and did so anyway. They must assume personal responsibility, as must science itself, for the development of nuclear weapons. Science cannot fall back on religious myth (Pandora's Box) when it so chooses to abdicate personal accountability for its actions. The scientists who took the atomic bomb to the next level by developing the hydrogen bomb also knew exactly what they were doing. Science cannot then claim some Pollyanna innocence and say, "Well, yeah, we invented these weapons capable of exterminating the planet, but it isn't our fault if people loaded these weapons on to delivery systems and intended to use them..." If scientists had a moral compass in such cases, they would have seen immediately why they were being asked to invent them. And the scientists went along with it willingly. Ergo, they cannot ask absolution from it now. Yes, there are scientists who look deeply into the ethics of new technology. But the nuclear weapons came to be nonetheless, did they not?
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Offline Skorpio79

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Re: The nerve of some people (Warning: rant)
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2013, 12:44:58 pm »
I enjoy this topic and hope folks can discuss it without becoming angry with each other.

There is really no point in discussing the theory of Evolution with someone who does not want to or ready to accept it. They feel it is counter to their religious beliefs---that you can either believe in a god or gods or you can believe in a natural explanation.
This is what's known as a false dichotomy...an either/or situation that is not true. Until they are willing to let both of these ideas live together, they will generally opt to disregard the decades of research and the mountains of evidence in favor of the more familiar religious answers.
Many religious people, however, understand that you don't have to choose one over the other.
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Offline Skorpio79

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Re: The nerve of some people (Warning: rant)
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2013, 12:50:48 pm »
Science is not a 'thing' as much as it is a tool or a process. With a shovel I can build a road or I can dig a booby trap. With a bow and arrow I can feed my family or I can kill my neighbor. The tool is not responsible for how it is used.
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Offline Mike_H

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Re: The nerve of some people (Warning: rant)
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2013, 01:11:56 pm »
Mike, something I wish to point out. Much of medical science today is not driven by evolutionary biology, but on profit margin. Science is wilfully neglecting the evolution of diseases becoming antibiotic resistant to instead concentrate on "lifestyle diseases" generally cured by proper diet and exercise. Science cannot have it both ways. It cannot ignore rapidly evolving "superflus" in order to devote its attention to Restless Leg Syndrome.

I must disagree about science not being responsible for the acts of humans using the technology it provides. All of the scientists on the Manhattan Project knew what they were doing and did so anyway. They must assume personal responsibility, as must science itself, for the development of nuclear weapons. Science cannot fall back on religious myth (Pandora's Box) when it so chooses to abdicate personal accountability for its actions. The scientists who took the atomic bomb to the next level by developing the hydrogen bomb also knew exactly what they were doing. Science cannot then claim some Pollyanna innocence and say, "Well, yeah, we invented these weapons capable of exterminating the planet, but it isn't our fault if people loaded these weapons on to delivery systems and intended to use them..." If scientists had a moral compass in such cases, they would have seen immediately why they were being asked to invent them. And the scientists went along with it willingly. Ergo, they cannot ask absolution from it now. Yes, there are scientists who look deeply into the ethics of new technology. But the nuclear weapons came to be nonetheless, did they not?

I never said what drives medical science is biological evolution, just that much of the processes used are based on the principles of evolutionary biology.

The references you provide are war driven not scientifically driven.  And let us not forget that many of those same scientists that worked on the Manhattan Project regretted doing so.  It also led to the end of one of the worst wars in the history of man kind.  And also not that we have not use such weapons since.  And the technology became a source of energy for several nations afterward.  What you are suggesting is blaming the gun for a murder and not the person.  We simply cannot do that.  Science is a tool. just like Skorpio79 said.  Even a tool can become a weapon but it takes a human being to wield it.

Offline Marks

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Re: The nerve of some people (Warning: rant)
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2013, 01:19:49 pm »
I'm not really interested in the discussion other than you seem to be very my way or WRONG! Its call the THEORY of evolution for a reason.

My main question is why can you discuss/rant your beliefs (evolution) on this forum but I'm not allowed to discuss mine (religion)? 

I'm not saying this because I want you keep you from your topic. Quite the opposite. If done respectfully I'm not opposed to anything. I think whats good/allowed for the Goose should be good for the Gander.

Offline Mike_H

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Re: The nerve of some people (Warning: rant)
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2013, 01:24:37 pm »
You obviously do not know what a theory is in science.  Look up the word.  It is also called the theory of gravity, but that's accepted all over the globe, isn't it?

I do not believe in evolution, it is a scientific principle that has been applied throughout the world with great success and has a mountain of evidence to support it.  Religion relies if belief alone without evidence to support it  I discuss science, not belief.  And that was not what the rant is about.  It was about a fellow having a backward view of Neanderthals that has not evidence to back it up.

Offline Skorpio79

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Re: The nerve of some people (Warning: rant)
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2013, 01:27:14 pm »
I apologize for sounding rude, but when you claim it's 'just a theory' it tells everyone A LOT about your understanding of science.

I do agree with you in not being opposed to anything. I was actually surprised to see this topic on the forum after reading the rules against politics or religion. The theory of Evolution is not religious, but all of the resistance to it is, so you really cannot discuss it in common circumstances without religion coming up.
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Offline Mike_H

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Re: The nerve of some people (Warning: rant)
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2013, 01:38:32 pm »
I apologize for sounding rude, but when you claim it's 'just a theory' it tells everyone A LOT about your understanding of science.

I do agree with you in not being opposed to anything. I was actually surprised to see this topic on the forum after reading the rules against politics or religion. The theory of Evolution is not religious, but all of the resistance to it is, so you really cannot discuss it in common circumstances without religion coming up.

Again, the rant was not about religion or evolution.  The subject does deal with evolution and that I why I tried to put a disclaimer in.  The rant was about a backward view of neanderthals this fellow has come up with without evidence to back it up.  Others have turned this into pro-or anti-evolution discussion.  I am merely defending science as a whole.

Offline Skorpio79

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Re: The nerve of some people (Warning: rant)
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2013, 02:08:00 pm »
Mike_H, I think we are both on the same page with it.

I should have been more accurate by saying I was surprised the moderators had not put on the brakes when the discussion evolved into what it is now.
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