Concealed handguns for teachers

[Parnell]

JW, I have a problem with it. My problem is none of that will kill the shooter. Teachers need to be throwing lead, not books.

"Weaponizing" the classroom against a shooter is not about killing the shooter.  It is about delay and distraction tactics that reduce the shooter's effectiveness.  The idea is to prevent as many casualties as possible until a final solution is met.  Meanwhile, if the teacher is loaded for bear, let'em return fire.  It's a whole lot better than being the good sheep waiting in line to die.

And to be very cold blooded, absolutely pragmatic...would we rather have 30+ victims due to the shooter, or half that with one or two other students caught in crossfire?  Feel free to use old school mathematics or modern math to add/subtract your way to a final number. 

For those that are horrified by my remarks, feel free to come up with the easy answer that solves everyone's problems in one fell swoop.  Then when you have that done, please go solve the problems in the Middle East.  Oh, and not that anyone here would say all guns should be outlawed, because we all know that a 25 lb propane tank and $15 at the hardware store makes a bomb that will nearly level a city block.  We can't outlaw everything that can be made dangerous.

JW, you raise some great things to consider...but I've got to know, what's the difference between old school mathematics and modern math?!  This I've got to hear!!!

[vinemaplebows]

So, now we know why nothing ever gets done in any public forum or government sanctioned problem. I think this thread shows how difficult it is to come to ANY solution before the next 5 attacks. (hopefully there are none :embarassed:) I believe in the democratic way.....BUT sometimes I wish someone were in control and just made a damn decision! BSing about a problem does nothing, especially one like this...too many opinions and of course nothing gets done. Guess this gives you a idea about being a politician.

VMB

[Slackbunny]

So, now we know why nothing ever gets done in any public forum or government sanctioned problem. I think this thread shows how difficult it is to come to ANY solution before the next 5 attacks. (hopefully there are none :embarassed:) I believe in the democratic way.....BUT sometimes I wish someone were in control and just made a damn decision! BSing about a problem does nothing, especially one like this...too many opinions and of course nothing gets done. Guess this gives you a idea about being a politician.

VMB

Sometimes that would be good. But in this case if Obama had his way I think most of you guys would be saying bye bye to your firearms. Democracy may be slow, but at least it keeps the mistakes smaller and easier to undo.

[Buffalogobbler]

I get what your saying VMB. We all have our opinions and agree only with those who reinforce those opinions, everybody else is wrong.
We refuse to work together to solve our problems,I'm right and your wrong, it's that simple.
And while this continues, so do the shootings in our schools.
Even here on PA where the respect among particapants is impressive and laudable, this subject exemplifies how we conduct ourselves in our society today, we talk around each other and nothing gets accomplished.

And concerning this subject, "arming teachers", I appreciate all of the passion displayed by everyone here, we all want to protect the children in our schools and I respect that, but guy's, are you really reading and thinking about the things you are saying?
Your talking about weaponizing the classroom,Having gunbattles inside of a classroom, and how many children would be acceptable collateral damage.
Think about the things your saying.
Would it not be more sensible to try to stop someone from entering the building first? There are no easy answers but should'nt this discussion start here?

Kevin

[Buckeye Guy]

J W
I vote we close the schools and let folks deal with their own kids !!
Or we can do it your way !

I do not think the new math will handle that calculation !

[bow101]

..................iety today, we talk around each other and nothing gets accomplished.

Kevin

Mmmmm makes you wonder living in a democratic style system that nothing gets resolved. 
I know the solution but aint saying..............

[JW_Halverson]

Your talking about weaponizing the classroom,Having gunbattles inside of a classroom, and how many children would be acceptable collateral damage.
Kevin

The flipside to this is to allow the shooters to shoot as many kids as they can before they run out of bullets. Then we can repair their self-confidence so then they won't shoot any more kids.  Granted, this is hyperbole.  But we have to ask, is there a moral imperitive to intervene?  If we chose to not intervene, do we carry the responsibility for the lives lost because we found it difficult to accept that responsibility?

It's precisely because schools are a "soft target" and not hardened that these psychologically damaged people choose them.  They don't wander onto military bases and head for the shooting ranges.  It's been said before, the only way to stop a bad person with a gun is a good person with a gun.  And this is only a stopgap solution.  It is the short-term solution until we come to grips with mental health issues and the obvious problem with access to deadly weapons by those that should not have them.

And I know that ruffles the feathers of hard line NRA members.  But, again, by chosing to do nothing, are you willing to bear the moral responsibility for those innocent children's deaths? As a gun owner and a staunch believer in the second amendment, I am beginning to ask a few questions of myself. 

But it's so much easier for me.  I live alone.  I have no family members with "issues", I don't have to look at them across the dinner table and ask myself if it is in the public interest to lock away all my guns or get rid of them.  On the other hand, since I have no children, what should I care? No skin off my nose, right?  But I do think about your kids and grand kids. 

Yeah, no easy answers, huh?  Sorry if I am hijacking this thread, Cip.  I feel strongly that these kids should not be paying the price for everyone else's freedoms. I feel strongly that if a mad dog gets loose in a school that someone puts that dog down fast. 

[Buffalogobbler]

Your talking about weaponizing the classroom,Having gunbattles inside of a classroom, and how many children would be acceptable collateral damage.
Think about the things your saying.
Would it not be more sensible to try to stop someone from entering the building first? There are no easy answers but should'nt this discussion start here?

Kevin

I certainly never suggested do nothing.
And if my words or opinion have caused offense, I apologise, there was no disrespect intended to anyone.

Kevin

[JW_Halverson]

No Kevin, I sure did not take offense with you. 

Short of constructing schools like windowless concrete prisons, there really isn't much to do to stop someone from accessing the classroom areas.  Entrances can be locked, but most of the time glass can be broken and someone can reach in to open the door.  Or an unarmed (for the moment) co-conspirator can open the door from inside.  Then there are windows, too.

Can we rebuild every school in the foreseeable future? No, but we can start by adding some basic design changes to the next ones being built.  Eventually, we'll get there. 

[vinemaplebows]

"Short of constructing schools like windowless concrete prisons"

Now that is a idea with merit.....pick them up when they are 18 and give them the loving boot out the door!

[Josh B]

I look at the prospect of arming select members of the staff and faculty as the very last line of defense, not the first and only defense.  Teachers are there to teach not be the security force.  That being said, no security will ever be impregnable by an organized and determined psycho or group of psychos as the case may be.  That one last layer of defense can make a big difference in the outcome.   Jw makes a lot of good points.  He's not suggesting that a few friendly fire casualties in the class room is a good thing.  Only that its better than the alternative, which is unchecked wholesale slaughter of every innocent in the room.  It seems pretty straight forward to me.  As far as the hardline NRA goes, I think the NRA is to eager to compromise on the second amendment.  That's right, I don't think they are hardline enough!  That's more of a statement of my beliefs, not a knock on the NRA.  But I do believe there are people who should not have firearms.  Some of them for no other reason than they are just plain to stupid to have em.  Others, would be unable to make the shot when needed.  They would be an added liability then.  It would be pointless to arm them.  For those that would be able to make that shot, well...nothing causes a scumbag to cease and desist like two in the chest and one in the head!  That could be the difference between my child coming home or not.  Easy choice for me.  Josh

[Pappy]

Lots of good ideas here,guess I just think any adult that's not a criminal or crazy
should be able to carry, no matter where they are.  I never leave home without one,hope I never need it but if I do,It's there. bow101,not sure where you are coming from but I don't want a King or Dictator,rather nothing get solved.
   Pappy

[Slackbunny]

"democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried"
-Winston Churchill

[Pappy]

Yep.  He was full of wisdom.
   Pappy

[criveraville]

Well here is my position.