Sinewed Choke Cherry

[BowEd]

Well fellas I've got this dry choke cherry stave to a floor tiller,stiff handled,straight tipped of about 65# at 64" long I'd say.I want to sinew it.I've been reflexing bows [hickory & maple] sinewed lately quite a ways[reverse bracing etc.].Now for this choke cherry[hav'nt worked this wood yet] it's some reaction wood that sets with 2 and 3/4" reflex at the moment.My feelings are that I don't want to push this type wood as much into reflex as the others because of the reputation it has for being a little brittle and tension weaker.I'm thinking to just apply the sinew to at least 1/16" thick dried sinew just the way it sets.Just let the sinew do its work and that's it.Does that sound like a good winning plan?Can't say for sure how much more reflex it will get from the sinew but I'd think it would be under 4" total anyway.It does have two rings of sapwood on it's back too.

[Dictionary]

Do you think a bow this long, NEEDS sinew?

Maybe you could cut it down a few inches to cancel out some of the mass. Im no choke cherry or sinew guy though.


.02

[BowEd]

That all depends on what a person wants to get out of a bow.64" is not too long a bow to me.A person can make a 64" low mass bow too if the sinew is applied in the right areas and properly in the right design.

[Pat B]

I think Dictionary's question is more of a performance one about the length of the bow as far as the sinew is concerned. (I don't mean to put words in your mouth, Dictionary) Are you getting the full potential from the sinew with a 64" bow or are you just looking for good protection for the back. Even if you recurved the tips, 64" is almost too long to get the potential from the sinew with a 28" draw.

[BowEd]

Pat B...I realized where Dictionarys' concern was pointed.Shortening a bow is not the only way to reduce mass on a bow.Yes I'm trying to kill two birds with one stone.Protection and performance.The sinew will not go all the way to the tips of course.I like a full 28" draw.I like shooting beyond 25 yards quite often.Shorter bows to me are too twitchy for consistent accuracy at that range and I'll take the Pepsi challenge on that statement.I do hear what you are saying though.Sounds to me like noone thinks the cherry will be in danger so far.I would like to hear from someone who has worked with this wood more though.

[toomanyknots]

You can sinew a 64" bow and effectively take advantage of sinews properties. Like Beadman said, you don't have to sinew all the way to the tips, and make sure to reflex the bow a good bit before applying the sinew, as well as possibly add more reflex while it is drying. I have no knowledge on cherry though. Might have to retiller a bit. Kinda funny argument in general though, either way, if you think about it. Like, if I offered you a 50# osage bow with 3" reflex, or 50# hackberry bow with a straight profile, which would you choose? Which do you think might shoot better if they were almost identical in all other regards? Do you think the weight difference might even out the reflex/early draw weight advantage, or vice versa? If I offered you a 50# sinewed cherry bow with 3" reflex, or a 50# cherry self bow with a straight profile, which would you choose? Which do you think might shoot better? 

[Pat B]

I never add sinew to the last 6" of each limb tip anyway. That is definately not necessary and will add unnecessary physical weight to the limb tips without any benefit. On a "regular" bow, be it straight, reflexed or recurve I think 65" is to long for a 28" draw to get the full potential from the sinew. 56" or less would be more effective. IMO  Maybe with a Mollie type bow where 1/3 of the limb or more is non working it might be effective on a longer bow.
 I'm not saying not to do it. That is your call but for me, if I go to the trouble of adding sinew to a bow I want to get every bit of potential out of it.

[Zion]

Chokecherry is a VERY strong wood, especially in tension. I've made some pretty short and they held up better then most woods. Why exactly do u need sinew? You could just add reflex with heat, it does wonders on this wood too....

[Josh B]

"Too long for sinew" is a relative statement in bow making.  Design and and intended draw length being the most important considerations.  In a bendy handle d-bow at 28", yes probably too long.  I'm assuming that this design is going to be similar to the last few bows I've seen of Ed's.  If so Ed uses a sort of Howard Hill style riser with a bit longer fades than most.  I would guess maybe 10" of non workin handle section.  Is that about right Ed?  If so, subtract that from the total length and you have a 54" bow.  Now figure in the nice 4" reflex and the fact that it won't  be sinewed on the last 6" inches of the limb, which will probably static and shaved down to the bare minimum  possible.   I fail to see how at 28" of draw, this would be too long for sinew.  It sounds just about right to me!  I look forward to seeing her all done up Ed!  Josh

[toomanyknots]

I never add sinew to the last 6" of each limb tip anyway. That is definately not necessary and will add unnecessary physical weight to the limb tips without any benefit. On a "regular" bow, be it straight, reflexed or recurve I think 65" is to long for a 28" draw to get the full potential from the sinew. 56" or less would be more effective. IMO  Maybe with a Mollie type bow where 1/3 of the limb or more is non working it might be effective on a longer bow.
 I'm not saying not to do it. That is your call but for me, if I go to the trouble of adding sinew to a bow I want to get every bit of potential out of it.

I agree with the good points you and everyone else on here has made about sinew bows and length, which should be pointed out, and I do realize that this is the general consenses, for good reason of course. However, just to look at things from a different angle, I have sinew backed bows 60" and longer and had good results, compared to how they shot before, (a couple of them were shootable bows before sinewing). Considerable poundage, after retillering, was only a couple pounds I believe, until months after finishing the bow, when the sinew had fully cured and gained a little weight. What I do when sinewing, is either put the bow on a 2 x 4 and bind at the handle, than raise the limbs by wedging things under them, or string backwards and twist up the string with a dowel that has 2 hooks on it to hold the string, until I have as much reflex as I want. If I wanted to sinew a 65" bow (yes it is long, but lets say I did, I have did it before,  ) I would do about 5" reflex to start. Lay down a layer of sinew, than raise the reflex an inch or so. Than immediately lay down another layer, raise a bit, than lay down another. Doing that I believe squeeze the sinew together and keep it from lifting when drying. So I would end up with about 8" or more reflex at the end. More if the wood can take it, like osage. With a bow this long, 8" reflex is maybe the equivalent of a 54" or so bow being reflexed 4" or so when sinewed, the way I look at it. On a 65" bow, I might tiller the outer limbs to be stiff, and keep the inner limbs doing most of the work, going for a sort of holmegard tiller, and keep the sinewing on the inner limbs only. But a full bend or even d bow would be easier on set. Either way it would be better to leave the last 6" or so naked.  You could always pike it down if you wanna too? 

[BowEd]

You fellas are close to talking about what I have in store for this choke cherry.Lightened up non working tips[8 to 10 inches]with no sinew which creates about 30" to 32" total of working limb.For me creates a smooth even good casting bow.If you compare it to shorter bendy handled bows there is no more working length of limbs as far as tillering goes but you get the added catapult action of those levers.My bows usually have only a 6 to 8 inch non working handles on them.Short,down to 1 and 1/4" fades which usually comes from side tillering.64" would be the limit of length for me for putting sinew on.I really think 62" or less might even be more suited.I put a lot of thought into the construction of a bow that's different than what I'm used to making.I just wanted to hear from someone who messed with choke cherry a lot.Density wise this piece seems heavier than elm but not as heavy as hickory.Sort of an easy working type wood.Behaved real well while drying.Takes everything well as far as dry and steam heat goes etc.I've just heard and read that it can be brittle,tension weak and compression stronger.To me it is sort of like ERC only denser.Just my observations so far.

[BowEd]

So far I've been assumed on of making a 65" bow,over tillering it so as to pike it[which is not an option.There are other ways of increasing poundage] and lose my advantage of my levers,having overly long handles all of which are mistaken.So far also the observations I've made on choke cherrys' characteristics are good for furniture but not bows.I will make and bend this bow to find out.To me it's not too complicated of a project.The journey of making a bow and shooting it in is just as if not more important as you all know.I realize sometimes too coming on here with a question a person does not hear what they want to hear.Also I like to dig a thorn into the side of the FG bow makers.I have an onery streak I guess.Thanks for the imput though.I do like reading and seeing what others opinions are.

[bow101]

Let me know how thee choke sheery works out.!  Lots around here just curious what kind of bow she makes..

[Matt A]

so regards to length mine being 30 how long would be max for sinewing?

[Pat B]

Matt, I'd say twice your draw length or less.  For a 65" sinew backed bow you would need to draw 33" or longer to get the potential from the sinew. I'm talking about a sinew backed bow, not a bow with a portion of the back sinewed. On a lever style bow you only need to connect the working portions of the bow with sinew so you might only be sinewing 44" on a 65" bow. In this case you would be getting the potential out of the sinew.