The difference between drying wood and seasoning it.

[Bryce]

I'm coming around to the seasoned wood side of this fence.
Went flipping through most of my archery books. Written by some great archers, Saxon pope, art young, Fred bear, Chester Stevenson, ect.
One archer talked about a stave not being dry, but instead "ripe".


They all preferred 'seasoned' staves. Now if there's anything I've learned from this short time on this planet it's to listen and soak up the knowledge the elders have to offer.because they know things that I don't. And even though I don't know the reason why they prefer them I may never know but i sure do want to find out.

[akswift]

In online searches, I also found that luthiers have investigated the causes and effects of aging or seasoning on sound quality. Toomanyknots brought this up too, but I did not see a connection to sound quality and bow strength until I realized that with sound resonance,  the qualities of brilliance desired over flatness may be an example of lessening the hysteresis or dampening effect in the sound board. Could this reduction be the same as we are looking for in a bow to impart more energy to the arrow?
Ryoons desire to quantify what makes seasoned staves better could be realized by performing hysteresis tests on similar seasoned and unseasoned samples at comparable moisture contents.  Tim Baker asserts in T.B.B.4. p. 142 "it seems likely that hysteresis is lower in very dry wood",  "toasting belly wood might lower hysteresis" and " if we can conjure up some way to keep very dry wood from breaking, or of keeping just the belly very dry,  bow performance could be enhanced." Most bowyers accept these reductions of hystereses to be effective.  What if proper seasoning is the way that wood could "act" drier without breaking? If so, perhaps the methods lutheriers have developed to cure sounding boards is worth looking at.
Maybe we could get Keenan to visit a luthier, and bounce his sound board stock off the concrete 

[Sidewinder]

Well....I'm not nearly as smart as some of you guys and just as much of a smart alec as most but after reading this thread all the way through I have to say that I absolutley love these sticky threads, It stimulate thought and gets us all to thinking. I also love the way we can share our opinions and not lose our gentlemanly attitudes.
 I think I understand that all woods do not have the same amount or even the same chemical make ups  as one another. I also  tend to think there is gonna be a difference that curing over a long period of time is going to have on the various swoods. The woods that have the resins obviuosly have something in them that the ones that don't have resins have...resins. The effect of the resins changing over time has to have some kind of effect in how the wood will perform. Now what kind of effect is still whats up in the air. It doesn't seem that it has been quantified.
  I know for me I prefer to let my stuff sit for at least three years before I try and build a bow with. I figure it certainly does'nt hurt it that for sure. I figured out early that if I don't want to run of materials to use I better make sure I have plenty harvested. Thats one of the reasons I try and harvest a good batch every year so that 10yr from now I can be working with older wood and give the others a chance to cure longer. Push come to shove I will work with any piece that has at least been dried properly but I just got a gut feeling that older is better.
 I am sure that there is most likely a tipping point per species where that no longer holds true and it begins to diminsh for the uses we bowyers have.   Danny
 

[Keenan]

  Now we can all meditate deeply on the knowledge and intrigue into the dark depths of Seasoned wood vs. dried wood.  I'm out of popcorn

[RyanY]

There's an inherent problem with testing woods in that it varies so much as a material between and within species. There are also soapy variables that can be applied to the drying/atmospheric onditions that it would almost be impossible to determine what is going on by testing. What I think would be more reasonable is an understanding of what is happening chemically to the structure of the wood over time. Of course I personally don't have the knowledge or understanding to make any guesses or even know where to start examining but it's fun to think about. Perhaps certain molecules, if they exist, in the wood crystallize over long periods of time and the increased stiffness, although not storing energy, exerts a kinetic force on the long energy storing molecules causing them to want to contract more so than in less seasoned wood.

[Carson (CMB)]

If you ain't shooting crystal powered bows, you aint living 

[JW_Halverson]

I will fall on the side of the fence of those that put their faith in seasoning.  I've worked some osage that was over 125 years cut, spent most of that time in a milk barn as a ceiling beam.  It worked in a quantitatively different manner than 2-3 yr cut osage.  The ring chasing was brilliantly easy.  Early wood was crisp and flew off the drawknife, late wood was like ceramic.  Ultimately, I put the stave aside because I have feared heat treating the stave to get the string to line up thru the handle.  Maybe some day I will finish the project. Who knows, maybe it is past it's prime and will be insanely brittle. 

Toomanyknots mentioned a few pages back about making a guitar body partially from osage.  That leads my mind down dark alleys towards God-knows-what!  Ultimately, as the wood aged and took on that lovely color that only osage acheives, it would make a beautifuyl instrument.  But it begs the question, would he string the guitar with Dacron B-50 or FastFlite?

Oh lord, another can of worms...B50 vs FF!  DON'T CROSS THE STREAMS!

[sleek]

So, here is a question. Has anybody tillered a bow out to a weight and draw length, then set the bow aside for a year or ttwo, then notice its of a higher weight? I ask because my wife made an osage bow that was 40 at 24. Two years later, it thinks its a war bow, and I can barely string it! Now I am sure some moisture loss can be blamed, but not to this degree.

[Buckeye Guy]

Hey folks the guitar builders are heat treating there wood these days to gain the better quality ,and we now carbonize wood for out door use instead of the chemical treatment !
More fuel for the fire ?

[bow101]

Wow this thread exploded. If there is a reason why well seasoned staves are better then it needs to be defined. Is it workability or in the finished product as a bow? Do bows from well seasoned staves shoot faster? If so then that means they store more energy per mass than less seasoned wood. At what point would seasoning no longer give an advantage and at what point do we start to see an advantage? There are so many factors that it would almost be impossible to test. Great bows have been made from both quick dried and seasoned staves and any difference is trivial and left to the opinion of the bowyer. Would be cool to know what happens to wood while being seasoned though.

Well said Ryoon.!!  As far as bows breaking Grain issues, bad tillering and other variables come into play where as "drying wood and seasoning it" could really be trivial in the Big Scheme of things...  I think this post raps it up for me.....    

[George Tsoukalas]

Y' all use your staves to play music or do you make bows from them? Jawge

[George Tsoukalas]

We could start a band. You get thrown out if you try to use an unseasoned stave. Jawge

[akswift]

Well George, hopefully we can use the staves to make better bows
A little more info on how luthiers artificially season their wood can be found here:

  http://www.luthierforum.com/index.php?/topic/1343-kermodie-testing-by-brian-burns/

Burns has done some testing and quantifies certain strength increases. An interesting aspect of their work is that it looks remarkably similar to heat tempering the belly. One poster on this thread maintains that

"These effects are pronouncedly less intense the older and more well-seasoned the wood is already. If I think the wood feels and sounds right, I don't cook it. If not, cooking usually speeds up the "ageing" process. "

Has anyone here made the same observation about toasting the belly of  bows made from  well seasoned staves?

[Bryce]

We could start a band. You get thrown out if you try to use an unseasoned stave. Jawge

We'll call ourselves "Staves on the Ground!"

[toomanyknots]

Well George, hopefully we can use the staves to make better bows
A little more info on how luthiers artificially season their wood can be found here:

  http://www.luthierforum.com/index.php?/topic/1343-kermodie-testing-by-brian-burns/

Burns has done some testing and quantifies certain strength increases. An interesting aspect of their work is that it looks remarkably similar to heat tempering the belly. One poster on this thread maintains that

"These effects are pronouncedly less intense the older and more well-seasoned the wood is already. If I think the wood feels and sounds right, I don't cook it. If not, cooking usually speeds up the "ageing" process. "

Has anyone here made the same observation about toasting the belly of  bows made from  well seasoned staves?

That is very intriguing, thank you!