Author Topic: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine  (Read 84288 times)

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Offline DanaM

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2007, 07:49:01 pm »
Looks like some really straight grained ash Dane, could've been a nice bow ::)
"Prosperity is a way of living and thinking, and not just money or things. Poverty is a way of living and thinking, and not just a lack of money or things."

Manistique, MI

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2007, 06:27:18 am »
Crossed my mind more than once, too. What can I say? All wood is not destined for bow making. All wooden bows, though, are made of wood. :) That is the best I can do philisophically at O-dark-30.

Dane
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

cllinker2

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2007, 05:13:33 pm »
Dane, I just joined the group.  There are a fair number of blacksmiths in your state, but if you need any advice in making points for your projectiles I have a lot of experience  forging nearly anything; unfortunately I live in the Ozark mountains a long way away.  I made some small catapults as a kid and I used nylon for the skeins.  You might try that while making up you sinew skeins so you can fine tune your machine.  I would imagine the characteristics of both materials are pretty similar in torsion.  I would start with lighter skeins and work my way up.  My catapults were small, threw a lead ball.  I made them in the early 1960's.

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2007, 07:43:25 pm »
Cllinker2, thanks for the post, and welcome to this community.

Most modern catapult makers use nylon rope, so that is great advice. As for forging, I appreciate the comments, and will consider that. I don't want to pester you, though.

I just finished rough cutting the slider, and once that is done and I have the stock closer to being done, I'll post more pics, Maybe by the end of the weekend.

Dane
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline jpitts

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2007, 12:17:15 am »
WOW !!!.... Dane...can't wait to see your progress on this baby.... They had one of these handd held in one of those Ancient Tech shows on the Hist channel....looked awesome....Good Luck on it.
Jimmy / Dallas, Georgia

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2007, 11:32:59 am »
Jim, thanks. This definetely is a much longer term project than a self or board bow. I'm hoping I can be shooting it by early next year.

In fact, I have to think along totally different lines as I build this little toy. I would like to say engineering, but I am no engineer :) There are formulas the Romans and Greeks developed for these machines, with the spring diameter being the central point of departure for all the other dimensions.

I should watch History Channel. I have it, but haven't watched TV in years, aside from movies.
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

cllinker2

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2007, 11:47:26 am »
Dane, I routinely teach blacksmithing and do a lot of drawings on how to make things, so it is not a bother, I am glad to help. 

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2007, 01:44:55 pm »
Well, I do appreciate this offer very much. And I am guessing you live in a beautiful part of the country, must be nice. Wish I could drive out and see your forge, but New England is a bit far from the Ozarks.

I will post some shots soon of the original Xanian artifact, so you can see what the nails look like that held on the bronze and iron plating. Those are the single most important forged items I need for this project for now. Projectile heads, as well, for both this little machine and the bigger one. 

Dane
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

cllinker2

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2007, 07:52:40 pm »
Hi Dane.  I have made literally tens of thousands of handmade nails of all sorts.  I wrote an article on making them for Early American Life in July, 1976 (Yeah, I'm that old!!) so if you give me the specs on the nails you need I can make them either of steel or manganese bronze.  I don't have tin bronze and it is brittle in forging hot anyhow.  I went to the page you mentioned and saw the reconstruction they had there.  I was not aware of torsion ballistas that were hand held.  The only illustrations I had looked at were in  A History of Technology and they showed a rather peculiar crossbow with a slack string,  It was not the slack string that was unusual as that the stock terminated in a round handle instead of a tiller typical to Medieval and Renaissance crossbows.  Specs for nails would be square or hand hammered round shank, type of head you prefer.  If you pay the postage there will be no cost for this project, as I assume there will only be a reasonable number of nails.  I do not currently have wrought iron, but if necessary I can probably scrounge some from some friends. the appearance is identical, the wrought iron is softer, not as strong.  I do have some exceptionally soft steel that would be suitable.  Of course, there is a price:  I want to see the pictures!

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2007, 09:09:55 pm »
I am blown away by your offer. Tell you what, I will provide complete pictures, and I'm a pretty good hand weaver. Could I weave you a bow sock, or maybe a wool or linen table runner? Or something else, perhaps?

Here is a liink to a database of images of the original machine. This is a remarkable find, proving they had 1st century hand-held arrow firing ballistas, and the find was so complete, it even had traces of rope on it. Until 2000, no one had any idea such as small wooden Vertruvian machine existed at all.

http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_easygallery/act,categories/cid,74/Itemid,135/

Oh, age is relative! :)

From studying the photos, it looks like there are 14 nails on the front of the machine, 4 in the back, and 24 total from both sides. There are 8 total for the top and bottom. All look to be square heads, and I leave it to you about square or round shanks. Bronze would be perfect, as I am sheating the frame primarily in bronze. 1/2" or shade longer would be more than enough. If you think another type of metal would be better, you are the expert.

I hope that is not too many for you to make, and I am deeply grateful.

If this sounds good to you, I will private message my address to you. Whatever postage is, no problem, just let me know.

Dane









Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

cllinker2

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2007, 03:08:03 pm »
Well, Dane, It's the kind of thing I would make if I could.  My wife is a weaver , and I learned to weave and spin proably 50 or more years ago.  The nails will be no problem.  My Email is on my profile, and you canjust send me your address there.  I have made perhaps 500 nails in a day when I was young.  Of course, thosue were all simple nails for a restoration, but the nails ae not an imposisiton, but arre a pleasure for me to particiape in your project.  I have seen ballista projectile points, and I sort of remember them to be like a bodkin point for a longbow or crossbow bolt.  I think the one I saw was quite corroded and impbeded in a human vertabrae! 
     As I asaid, I am recperating from surgery, and I have some time important work I need to do when I get back to work, hopefully next week, but I can get them made in the next several weeks I am sure.  The only drawings I currently have of ballistas are in a reprint of a 1900 book, and Payne-Gallwey often mae things look as he thought they should.  I see in a different thread that some arre worried about bodkin sockets opening up if the shaft does not fit perfectly.  I assume the traditional method, and one that has worked for me, is simply to shape the wood as close as possible, then heat the shocket ehough to burn it to a close fit and mount with whatever adhesive was common at the time, probably either a pitch, gum, or asphaltum base adhesive. 

cllinker2

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2007, 03:15:08 pm »
Well, Dane, It's the kind of thing I would make if I could.  My wife is a weaver , and I learned to weave and spin proably 50 or more years ago.  The nails will be no problem.  My Email is on my profile, and you canjust send me your address there.  I have made perhaps 500 nails in a day when I was young.  Of course, thosue were all simple nails for a restoration, but the nails are not an imposition, but are a pleasure for me to participate in your project.  I have seen ballista projectile points, and I sort of remember them to be like a bodkin point for a longbow or crossbow bolt.  I think the one I saw was quite corroded and embedded in a human vertebrae! 
     As I said, I am recuperating from surgery, and I have some time important work I need to do when I get back to work, hopefully next week, but I can get them made in the next several weeks I am sure.  The only drawings I currently have of ballistas are in a reprint of a 1900 book, and Payne-Gallwey often made things look as he thought they should.  I see in a different thread that some are worried about bodkin sockets opening up if the shaft does not fit perfectly.  I assume the traditional method, and one that has worked for me, is simply to shape the wood as close as possible, then heat the socket enough to burn it to a close fit and mount with whatever adhesive was common at the time, probably either a pitch, gum, or asphaltum base adhesive.
      I see I was clever enough to post this before spell checking it the first time!

Offline mamba

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2007, 08:04:10 pm »
Dane ,can't wait to see the finished project.Never seen anything like this before.
Ray/NY

Offline Loki

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2007, 08:50:58 pm »
I've seen a few Roman torsion machines but not one of them had a sinew rope! all were using modern ropes/string's.I'm eagerly awaiing the result's of this project Dane,it's gonna be greattt!!!! ;D

As for arrowheads,Trilobate,Bilobate or the armour piercers found at Vindolanda (similar to type 9) will do for this baby!
Bilobate heads are similar to Saxon type 1's but a little larger.Trilobate are the three bladed brute's but they look chewy to make,Hector cole in England makes them but he's pricey (bloody good though!).
If you make a shoulder on the shaft for the socket to sit on you shouldnt have any problems with the socket opening,if the head doesnt fit the shaft correct the shaft will push into the head on impact,splitting the socket,or just make them Tanged.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 09:45:06 pm by Loki »
Durham,England

Trapper

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2007, 05:02:15 pm »
Dane, I was wondering if there is enough room for the skiens too fit in there?  Trapper