Author Topic: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine  (Read 84301 times)

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Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #105 on: December 03, 2007, 06:14:36 am »
I ended up having to work yesterday, and so was diverted. It should work just fine, though. Soon as I can, I'll finish it up and give a report.

Dane
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #106 on: December 03, 2007, 10:26:58 am »
A bit more musing from me, if you will indulge me. This thread seems to be turning into philosophy 101.

I finished a book last night called "Catapult: Harry and I Build a Seige Weapon." It is a strange and facinating book, and in a way, is not about the actual building of the machine, but of the process, how it alters the authors perceptions and world view. What began as a fun lark ended up becoming a war machine, what he and others described as "mean-looking." It was always great fun, though, including firing stones into the ocean at the end of the book. The guys in the book thought perhaps they were making a toy, but that is not what emerged.

I have to wonder about that myself, but not in the same way. I look at many bows here, and the majority of the weapons are made for hunting. I myself am not a hunter, but love venision, and have no issues at all with those who hunt with traditional weapons. Someday, I do hope to go hunting, actually. LA, where I grew up, is not an enclave for hunters, maybe!

The historic war weapons, like the great English warbow, the Asiatic bows, crossbows, etc., have similarities to a hunting or sport weapon, but the intent behind them is entirely different.

This is neither bad nor good, but it what it is.  But as I progress in this project, I seem to be "plugging into" a mindset that is far different than any other for any other project I have ever undertaken, including bows, shelving, clothing, cooking, and so on, so I look at this project in a way that is entirely new in archery, but not perhaps in other aspects of my life and past.

My wife seems to enjoy seeing this machine as it emerges, but she has made some interesting comments. It was a crazy collection of wooden components and sketches and so on at first. Once I got the frame and stock set for some photos which I posted earlier in this thread, she took a long look at it and said wow, this is serious. This is dangerous looking.

And it is. Even without the springs or bow arms, the potential built into the machine is there as you look at it, like a power that kind of hums just beyond our range of hearing. And it is a seductive kind of power, too, which I think you have to embrace as the machine comes into existance. The design drives that, and without it, I don't know if it would be possible to finish it.

I am no pacifist, and served in the US Army as an infantryman, and recall that I had all sorts of options for various training schools and MOSs (Military Occupational Specialty), based on my testing scores. But, the only thing that interested me was being a grunt, and if I could do it all over again, I would go down the same route. As a rifleman, your weapon is an extension of yourself. It is a personal kind of relationship that makes your weapon not a tool but part of who you are. This manuballista seems to have the same kind of vibe to me now, if that makes any sense at all. I think it will be a beautful machine when it is done, glittering bronze, burnished steel, glowing wooden components, horsehair rope, and that beauty will bring out the lethal nature of the beast, too. I see that in some of the amazing armor suits from the high middle ages, or the dueling pistols with fantastic engraving. The beautiful craft that makers lavished on these weapons seems to make them deadlier looking.

And that is all for now.

Dane   
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Bikewer

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #107 on: December 03, 2007, 01:08:48 pm »
I just read this little book:

http://www.amazon.com/Adventures-Technology-Underground-Catapults-Flamethrowers/dp/0307351254/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196700533&sr=8-4

Which has a chapter on catapults and related devices.   The author is the same guy who put out "Backyard Ballistics", and he has an entire book devoted to ancient hurling machines as well.

I recently read Payne-Gallwey's book on crossbows, and he devotes the ending chapters to these devices as well.


Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #108 on: December 03, 2007, 01:51:10 pm »
I have the backyard ballistics book. He loves PVC piping.

I have that book as well. Some great illustrations throughout, including one of some dogs trained to retrieve bolts at the target butts. That would come iin handy, but my Pug probably is too smart to fetch arrows. :) I'm not sure how much you can trust his ideas, though.

Dane



Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Bikewer

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #109 on: December 05, 2007, 10:42:53 pm »
Hehe- my two retrievers (one Golden, one Labby) want desperately to retrieve my arrows, but they like to eat 'em!

Offline Loki

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #110 on: December 07, 2007, 05:21:04 am »
Hey Dane,take a look at this!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qGzYumLxYSI
Durham,England

Eric Kol

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #111 on: December 07, 2007, 10:44:10 am »
So, how powerful is this? FPS? I did see the youtube video. Very cool. Can't wait to see it as it progresses.

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #112 on: December 07, 2007, 11:07:23 am »
Hey Andy, thanks for posting this video! Very cool seeing this manuballista (scorpio minor is what I may end up calling mine) in action. Like many Internet videos, I wish it was higher resolution and quality, and will endeavor to take that into consideration when I shoot some video. Couldn’t tell much about how accurate the machine was, and how far those flight shots were, either. I would kill for some video of in-depth testing too (and accompanying data) – one big reason I am building my machine.

Interesting how they engineered the trigger locking plate as a stationary component at the end of the stock. My use of linear saw-tooth ratchets will give me much more control over how much power I can eke out of the machine, in concert with the two torsion springs – these guys don’t have that much control. Also, they used nylon rope for the springs, whereas horsehair ropes will give better performance. I think my other criticism is that they didn’t fully fill the spring holes, based on seeing and reading about this reconstruction on RAT and seeing photos of it in the museum in Germany. This legio built two identical machines, one for the Xantan display, and the other for their own use, I believe. I wrote to them about their work, but haven’t heard back yet.

That vertical shoulder rest thingie is troublesome too. Alan Wilkins strikes again! But, it is very beautiful workmanship overall. Looks like a bunch of fun too! Which in the end is one of the big reasons we are all into sharp point things that travel at high velocity.

Eric, no one seems to know. The published work based on the Xantan find (they found it in a gravel pit, something like that) has not been forthcoming yet, seven years after it was uncovered. And as I mentioned, they didn't maximize the potential of the reconstruction. I will be doing as much testing as possible with my machine (which, though not a carbon copy of this machine, will I think be a reasonable reconstruction). Any suggestions for testing procedures and goals and all that would be appreciated, as that is something I have never done before. Being honest about what the tests say, and not testing to support any pre-drawn conclusions is paramount.
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline wolfsire

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #113 on: December 07, 2007, 01:45:24 pm »
Dane,

Testing suggestion:  Stack of pigs to see how many you can penetrate.   >:D  Pigs are a good proxy for humans, maybe you can find something cheeper, or maybe, if the timing is right, you can get some wild boar, or other animals from hunts on loan for testing.

That video was cool, as was your commentary.

I understand your criticism, but I liked the spanning and though a foot step might make it easier.
Steve in LV, NV

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #114 on: December 07, 2007, 03:25:50 pm »
Hey there Wolfsire.

Thanks for the comments. I am not sure I would want to shoot a stack of pigs. Don’t get me wrong, pork is one of my very favorite things, next to beef and venison (though bison is excellent, when I can get it). Makes me a bit queasy thinking of that – guess I’m a wimp.

I even raised a pig in high school to see what agriculture is about, believe it or not. Me, a kid in the Los Angeles suburbs, and I decided to take a commercial agriculture class. I was fond of my animal, even though I knew his ultimate fate on the market. I didn’t actually name him, if I recall right. I was supposed to have been allowed to butcher him, but that didn’t happen. Pissed off a bit, if I recall, showing up one day and the pigs were all gone from the sty. I think I lost money on the project, as the pork prices were lousy at the time the pig went to slaughter. I may have broken even, though. Gave me a lot of respect for farmers, for sure.

Wow, haven’t thought of that project in ages. My poor pig, I hardly knew ye. I hope his ribs and sides of bacon made someone very happy. :)

You know, I seem to recall reading once that many years ago, the US Army was doing ballistics testing with small arms, and shot up a bunch of live tethered goats. That must have been ghastly.

Is there some other way of testing penetration to proximate humans? Ballistic materials, that kind of thing? Like CSI, I guess :). Anyone have any ideas? My future brother in law is a NYPD lieutenant – maybe I can ask him what they use. Heck, maybe I can talk him into having the city forensic guys get involved? That would be so cool.

 I do want to make proper subarmillis (sp?) and find and use correct riveted maille in some tests (not galvanized butted junk, in other words). I already have access to some old but correctly constructed shields for shield penetration testing at various ranges as my legion upgrades to some new shields.

Oh yeah, seeing how the weapon is spanned says a lot about how these machines work. Easier than explaining it.

Dane
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline wolfsire

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #115 on: December 07, 2007, 05:32:44 pm »
I am guessing that there is a forum related to the show MythBusters and there is some discussion about how to approximate a human body for testing.  Just a thought; worth a google.
Steve in LV, NV

Bikewer

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #116 on: December 07, 2007, 10:39:52 pm »
Hehe- I post regularly at the Mythbusters forum.     A good analog for human bodies is rather hard to find.   Ballistic gel doesn't really qualify; it's only purpose is to give an approximate density of muscle tissue so that consistent results can be obtained when testing bullets.    Back when I was doing a lot of shooting, water-soaked telephone books bound with twine were popular, but I don't imagine they're very close either.
I fear carcasses of some sort are the only way to go.

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #117 on: December 08, 2007, 08:51:56 am »
So, back to goats, is it? :)
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #118 on: December 08, 2007, 10:45:22 am »
Here is the belly brace, not quite done, but fairly close too. I made this by laminating a 2" and a 1" plank of ash, and shaped it with a hand saw, a hatchet, a little Viking adz I have, rasps and a hand-held belt sander. I want to work it down a bit more, but overall I am pleased. I'll be making a simple dado joint to atttach it to the end of the stock, after squaring up the stock end. I may or may not pad the belly surface with leather.

I may have made this piece a bit oversized, but I think it looks good this way, so I'm sticking with it. Never change the answers on the test, you know :) The Romans were known for making big statements, after all. It will add a bit more weight to the machine, but that will also help stabalize the weapon when shooting. Humping it during a parade (last one my legio did was a couple of weeks ago, bitterly cold in beautiful Malden, Massachusetts, and carrying a heavy machine would keep me warmer, ha ha.

Oh, notice the cheesy mocked up springs, arms, and string. I did this a week ago only to confirm the angle of the bow arms when it is spanned. The arms will be about 7.5" long, and made from much thicker ash stock. I was actually a bit worried that I messed up the lenth of the machine, so I was relieved it worked out.

At this point, the major woodworking is done on the machine. Huzzah! Next machine should go faster, of course, as I know a lot more about what I am doing, instead of groping in the dark.

Oh, at Wolfsire's request, I have Davenport T. Pug in there for perspective.

Dane

Dane

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Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #119 on: December 08, 2007, 10:47:22 am »
Four more shots, including Davenport.

Dane

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Greenfield, Western Massachusetts