Just laid my first silk backing, whats up with the wrinkles?

[toomanyknots]

Anybody get this too? I wet the backing strips before laying em down in the glue, if that might have something to do with it. It seems about impossible to get rid of the wrinkles, so I guess I am going to keep em. I used gorilla wood glue, as I figure it dries semi clear, so it should look ok after it dries, and then I can throw a couple coats of poly on top of em. The gorilla wood glue was pretty tacky from the start, so what I did was coat the limb lightly in glue, and then get my fingers wet and rub the limb to make the glue a bit runnier. I didn't add a coat of glue on top of the fabric, I just laid it down on top of the glue. It seems a bit pointless as a protection if the backing has all these wrinkles in it, it seems to me at least. Would I still get the wrinkles if I laid the backings down dry?

[bow101]

I would not lay down the silk dry. Used Titebond glue. I got wrinkles as well, the read somewhere on here that if you lay down the silk and wait till it starts to set up then work out the wrinkles, I would use a small putty knife. Once dry put on another coat of glue, then sand.
I think I'll try Brown paper bag next time see how that works out. Although you can get some real wicked designs for Silk Ties. One tie I got from a thrift shop still had the Price on it for $50.00 paid $1.00..

[toomanyknots]

Well here is how it turned out:





Here is a picture of the backing next to the original silk:



I was wondering if I could just lay a real light coat of glue down to where the glue doesn't penetrate through the silk, lay the backing down dry on top of the light coat of glue, and then poly over it, so that I can keep the nice color and sheen of the silk, as well as keeping it from not wrinkling up? ? Dwardo and Gordon, I need your wisdom...  lol  .

[tattoo dave]

Well, I usually use a 2 part epoxy to apply all my fabric backings. I use one with a little longer gel time, like 15 minutes. That give ya time to work out wrinkles. I apply the glue to the bow, lay down dry fabric, then work more glue into the fabric on top. This is when you can push out all wrinkles. As far as keeping the original color goes, you'll never keep it the same. In my experience, no matter what glue you use the fabric is always going to end up a lot darker with glue soaked into it. I hope that helps. The bow looks great by the way!

Tattoo Dave

[Pat B]

Unless you are using the silk only for cosmetics you want the glue to penetrate the silk. The combo gives you the strength just like with FG.
 I use TBIII(any water based carpenters glue will work). If the backing is thin enough so it drapes over the bow I don't wrap it but if it is stiffer I do wrap. If I do wrap it I only leave the wrap on for about an hour. Otherwise I glue the backing down let the glue set a bit then, working from the handle out each limb I work out any air bubbles, excess glue pockets and wrinkles(most at least). This be before the glue has a chance to set completely.
 

[toomanyknots]

Unless you are using the silk only for cosmetics you want the glue to penetrate the silk. The combo gives you the strength just like with FG.
 I use TBIII(any water based carpenters glue will work). If the backing is thin enough so it drapes over the bow I don't wrap it but if it is stiffer I do wrap. If I do wrap it I only leave the wrap on for about an hour. Otherwise I glue the backing down let the glue set a bit then, working from the handle out each limb I work out any air bubbles, excess glue pockets and wrinkles(most at least). This be before the glue has a chance to set completely.
 

Thats how I usually do with linen, but for the life of me I could not get the wrinkles out.

[toomanyknots]

Well, I usually use a 2 part epoxy to apply all my fabric backings. I use one with a little longer gel time, like 15 minutes. That give ya time to work out wrinkles. I apply the glue to the bow, lay down dry fabric, then work more glue into the fabric on top. This is when you can push out all wrinkles. As far as keeping the original color goes, you'll never keep it the same. In my experience, no matter what glue you use the fabric is always going to end up a lot darker with glue soaked into it. I hope that helps. The bow looks great by the way!

Tattoo Dave

Thanks for the tip. I will give epoxy a go next time.

[burn em up chuck]

     I read somewhere that the old-timers used to stretch the silk as they glued it done. That being said, I don't  remember where,pretty sure it was in TBB's. Not sure which one thou.
     I apologize for being so vague,hopefully it sets you on a path to solving the problem

[PatM]

It's also because you're using a water based glue. Silk wrinkles up on contact with water.
 The old timers did stretch the silk and it was mentioned in TTBB.
 There used to be actual silk backing strips that were pre-made and  at least treated with something to make them more manageable before gluing on.
 Here's a link : http://books.google.ca/books?id=oScDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA140&lpg=PA140&dq=silk+backing+strips&source=bl&ots=CQYcOADTiC&sig=5MEJFtqaHwHS5NrSU5mmtUrzuFs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZWTkUIPgB8-90QGovIGAAQ&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=silk%20backing%20strips&f=false

[toomanyknots]

Well the best results I have had so far have been with gorilla glue. I lay a layer of glue on the wood, lay the silk down dry and rub the glue in, than apply another layer of glue on top of that and smooth it in. After doing it this way, the results have been alot better looking than the first time. Although the silk is saturated with un-thinned glue completely, compared to the first time where it was just lightly glued down with watered down glue, the results were alot lighter, which was weird. This glue is a bit weird too. On a couple test pieces of wood I did, where I applied some glue like you would a brush on finish, the glue did dry pretty clear. But it seems to make very visible smudges extremely easily with the lightest touch, even 2 days after the glue has dried. I know if I use it to do a backing, I will definitely do a coat or two of poly before I even tiller the bow. 

[BL]

I've only silk-backed 2 bows now, so take this with a grain of salt but it worked fine.

I mixed in a very small amount of water to some glue just on a plastic cottage cheese lid, and made sure it was blended pretty well just stirring it up with my finger, then I poured a generous line down the center of the limb and spread it around from there (pretty drippy).  I had the silk strip soaking in warm water for about 10 minutes before that.  Pulled it out, smoothed it by hand, and laid it on the limbs.  Pour another line of glue down over top of it then long strokes down the limb with my finger or the side of my palm.  It smoothed out pretty well and actually started to get a little worse the more I worked it.  I think get it on and run my finger down it a few times in long strokes to get in all in line, making contact and a little stretched, then let it go.

I also went back later and added some more glue to saturate it better.

[toomanyknots]

It's also because you're using a water based glue. Silk wrinkles up on contact with water.
 The old timers did stretch the silk and it was mentioned in TTBB.
 There used to be actual silk backing strips that were pre-made and  at least treated with something to make them more manageable before gluing on.
 Here's a link : http://books.google.ca/books?id=oScDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA140&lpg=PA140&dq=silk+backing+strips&source=bl&ots=CQYcOADTiC&sig=5MEJFtqaHwHS5NrSU5mmtUrzuFs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZWTkUIPgB8-90QGovIGAAQ&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=silk%20backing%20strips&f=false

That article makes silk sound like sinew,  . Thanks for the link.

[lostarrow]

With most material ,it soaks up the glue quickly and creates a high initial tack. When  laying out large sheets of velvet etc. in cabinets ,display cases etc. I found that if you carefully roll your material onto a  dowel /stick /cardboard roll or the like, you can start at one end ,square it up ,and roll it out on the glue ,smoothing it out as you go.Keep the roll up off of the bow and only let the material touch where you are ready to apply it. Don't push it down hard at first ,as this tends to stretch the fabric ,setting you up for problems farther along.  Once it's laid down. lightly run your finger down the middle ,and work any bubbles out to the edges. A nice smooth layer of glue goes a long way to a good finished product as well. I apply it with a small disposeable foam roller making sure there are no lap marks or lumps. 

[toomanyknots]

Thats an awesome idea lost arrow!