Author Topic: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...  (Read 132257 times)

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Offline paulsemp

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2012, 07:07:56 pm »
If you were to line up all n. american species of staves ( asides from yew never worked with it) and said pick one,10 out of 10 times I would take the osage. But that is just me.

Offline RyanY

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2012, 07:11:38 pm »
I have to disagree. While a lot of what I'm saying agrees with those ideas it's not based on bias but my understanding of the physics of this all. I wouldn't start this discussion just to blow smoke. I'm just trying to start talks that will help us all further our understanding. If they were wide enough then they wouldn't have broken. Get wood thin enough and it will bend to the radius you want it to. Then make it wide enough to have the strength you want. Even if extremely wide it wouldn't have broken. Also I think a 60/40 working/stiff ratio at that length, draw length, and draw weight is poor for any wood. How wide were the bows?

Offline Carson (CMB)

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2012, 07:24:24 pm »
With regards to heavier limbs shooting a heavy arrow faster. If a bow with heavy limbs and one with lighter limbs shoot the same arrow, the bow with lighter limbs will shoot the arrow faster. Why would arrow mass make a difference? With both arrows the heavy limbs suck up more precious stored energy meaning there's less to go to the arrow.

Now you are asking the right question, Ryan.  So why would arrow mass make a difference?  Because the arrow constitutes 1/2 of the equation when we discuss bow performance..and like k-hat pointed out, the arrow 1/2 often times gets ignored.  Here is my theory, albeit half-baked while I chased a ring on half an osage stave:  Upon release of the string, an arrow imparts resistance to the movement of the bow limbs, proportional to the arrows mass.  We talk non-stop about force draw curves of the bow (well, maybe we don't, but a lot of bowyers do), but what about the resistance curve of the arrow as it is being shot?  It is not a straight line, there is a loading up initially as the arrow compresses and flexes behind the relatively heavy point/tip.  A heavier arrow with stiffer spine and heavier point would impart greater resistance, particularly during the initial "loading up" phase.  While a lite tip bow and a heavy tip bow of equal draw weight impart the same momentary force to the arrow, the heavier tip bow will have greater inertia, imparting more energy to the arrow through this loading up phase.  Can anyone who actually understands physics evaluate that thought for me? 
"The bow is the old first lyre,
the mono chord, the initial rune of fine art
The humanities grew out from archery as a flower from a seed
No sooner did the soft, sweet note of the bow-string charm the ear of genius than music was born, and from music came poetry and painting and..." Maurice Thompso

Offline lesken2011

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2012, 07:27:34 pm »
I love these "my dad can whip your dad" discussions!! ::)
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9

Kenny from Mississippi, USA

blackhawk

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2012, 07:28:51 pm »
Okay..no problems here and I have no issue respectfully disagreeing.   ;) the only way you can make me believe you is if I see that 50" poplar 40/60 ratio Molly drawing at least 50@25". Not all woods are created equally even if made wider to be able to take the strain in my opinion. The hackberry was 3" wide full width of working limbs,and the hhb n hick were 2 1/2" wide full width. And all were VERY thin,but don't remember exact thickness. All staves..maybe I just had some bad luck. All were only intended for a 26" draw.

Anyways...I'm out and don't need to explain myself anymore even tho much more can be said...I know osage is best. <------ that's a period   ;)

Offline RyanY

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2012, 07:33:15 pm »
CMB, the heavier tip would have more inertia but this would cause MORE resistance to movement in the beginning stages. The force of the limbs would have to put more force into moving the tips because of their extra mass.

blackhawk, I'm seriously considering making that poplar bow.  ;)

Offline toomanyknots

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2012, 07:36:57 pm »
and can make ANY design out there and do it well,whereas a lot of other woods are limited and more "design specific" and limited to what they can take and do.

I wish that were true. I won't make an osage longbow anymore without it having at least 3" reflex from the start, cause if it don't, the extra mass just kills the performance. I love my osage longbows, but they don't never touch the performance of my mulberry longbows, which end up looking somewhat similar in the end anyway, and have enough meat on the tips to allow for traditional horn nocks. Where as if I don't do whip tiller-inducing needle tips on my osage longbows, it really shows in the hand shock and performance of the bow.
"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

blackhawk

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2012, 07:39:45 pm »
Okay one more time.lol...my point is that if you try ten times with the poplar you might get a shooter or two,but I bet you wood get a shooter every time with the osage.

But ill be waiting for that bow from ya  ;)

Offline Dave 55

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2012, 07:54:45 pm »
Who makes poplar bows?
Now is the good old days

Offline Bryce

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2012, 07:59:29 pm »
Osage is by no means an "inferior" wood. Doesn't make the best WLB or ELB. So what.
Clatskanie, Oregon

Offline Onebowonder

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2012, 08:17:44 pm »
<snip...>Can anyone who actually understands physics evaluate that thought for me?
I don't recall what I once knew in University Physics too much,
...but I do know football! ...a little anyway.  Think of Linemen.  Really big, heavy, and strong.  They are endowed with a little extra inertia compared to say a corner or a free safety.  Now all that inertia does slow you down, if the question is one of taking off from a standing start; however, it also translates into increased momentum once you are started and the question becomes one of blocking continued forward progress.   Linemen apply an insane amount of force per moment to whatever they touch because of this inertia/momentum.

So, how does this apply to the arrow being shoved forward by the bowstring, which is being pulled violently forward by the nock tips?  Well, in this example, bows are like linemen in that they can only apply force to the object they are working against as long as they are touching it.  So, when the tips take off, if they are Lineman tips, they take a little longer to get moving in the first place, but once they are moving, they have the potential to impart much more energy per moment of contact than do their Free Saftey type counter parts.  If the arrow being shoved forward is another lineman, (750+ grains for example), then the heavier nocks are going to have a longer opportunity AND a greater potential to impart force into the projectile.  Conversely, if the arrow is a Wide Reciever, (say a super light carbon fiber flight arrow), the speed advantage of the Free Safety nocks is going to be more evident in the observed results.

...at least that's what made sense to my way of thinking.  8)

OneBow

Offline adb

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2012, 08:40:01 pm »
So... this bow maker walks into a bar where bowyers are known to hang out, and starts a 'discussion' on the best bow wood...

Offline Bryce

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2012, 08:47:50 pm »
Hahahahahaha
Clatskanie, Oregon

Offline PEARL DRUMS

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2012, 08:51:51 pm »
Osage burns hotter than all of them, you cant argue that Sparty!
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

Offline rossfactor

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2012, 08:54:22 pm »
This kind of discussion  led to the first MOJAM, where bows were tested for speed. If I recall, the fastest Osage bow came in somewhere around number 5, although I don't have my TBB with me. Of course other factors such as durability weren't evaluated.

Gabe
Humboldt County CA.