Author Topic: vertical grain is stronger than horizontal grain  (Read 33713 times)

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Offline gfugal

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Re: vertical grain is stronger than horizontal grain
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2019, 08:14:37 pm »
Hello guys!

I came across this old thread and found it really interesting. So I dig it out with a question:

I‘d like to use a small ash log, split it in half and use the splitting surface (the side that is normally used as belly) for the back. The fibers would be intact, just as with a chased ring at least from what I understand.
I can see some advantages here: Wide limbs can be produced even from small logs, because there is no high crown. The cross section is rectanguar and it accelerates the roughing out.

Has anybody expiriences with this? If it works, why is this technique not as common as chasing a ring?

Thanks!

I had this idea of a "flipped grain" bow too, I started a thread about it not too long ago but didn't get very many responses http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,63538.msg892830.html#msg892830. I think I'm going to attempt it at some point in the future. I currently have 3 bows I currently have in the works before I can start another one from scratch, and as is, it's taking me a long time to get any done with my school schedule.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 08:24:48 pm by gfugal »
Greg,
No risk, no gain. Expand the mold and try new things.

Offline Stick Bender

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Re: vertical grain is stronger than horizontal grain
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2019, 03:01:00 am »
I think things are done traditionaly for comon sense reasons & survival , I think we think we are smarter then we really are most things in bowyering have all been done before , edge grain wood if unbacked is a lot more susceptible to moister penetration then a ring followed  , put stain on both & easy to see , but really only one way to find out build the bows to compare as far as performance & durability ! Its easy to speculate but really only one way to find out !
If you fear failure you will never Try !

Offline Bayou Ben

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Re: vertical grain is stronger than horizontal grain
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2019, 07:43:36 am »
Sure it can be done, as there's a lot of unbacked board bows to prove this. 
But when using unbacked edge grain as a stave the early growth fibers are now exposed to tension.  I have't tested this, but my guess is that those fibers aren't nearly as strong or durable as late growth ones, and a traditional stave has all unblemished late growth fibers.
I tend to agree with you Ritchie.  Use your previous experience, history, tradition, advice from others as a starting point.  From there the only way to prove something is to let the shaving fly.  :BB 

Offline gfugal

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Re: vertical grain is stronger than horizontal grain
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2019, 08:19:17 am »
I think things are done traditionaly for comon sense reasons & survival , I think we think we are smarter then we really are most things in bowyering have all been done before , edge grain wood if unbacked is a lot more susceptible to moister penetration then a ring followed  , put stain on both & easy to see , but really only one way to find out build the bows to compare as far as performance & durability ! Its easy to speculate but really only one way to find out !
I'm definitely not saying throw tradition out the window, and disregard the expert advice from experienced members. I tend to be hard-headed with my ideas and get myself into trouble, but that's just the way I am I guess. I tend to have to learn things the hard way. I also think I should caution any beginner to go out and do "new" things when they haven't even done things the way they've always been done. Trust me I've done that too, only to fail. I am definitely no expert, I don't have near the experience of even an average member let alone the experts. However, I do think we shouldn't dismiss things so easily without first giving it a thorough, persistent, and honest try. I guess I'm trying to appeal more to the experienced members on this page. How many bows have you made now? hundreds if not more? Why not try something new, sure you may end up failing, but you might find out an alternative, if not a better way of doing things. Maybe you deem it not worth your time, and I guess that's your decision. I guess I find interest in different aspects of creativity than most and like to try to think outside the box.
Greg,
No risk, no gain. Expand the mold and try new things.

Offline bradsmith2010

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Re: vertical grain is stronger than horizontal grain
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2019, 08:20:31 am »
I think the edge grain bows prove,,,there is no performance advantage,..I'm pretty sure the world record setting bows Badger makes are not edge grain orientation,,,I hope he will chime in,..I am not talking laminated bows,,,and have nothing against edge grain,,,and have made them.,,I think both orientations can make a fine bow
I started making edge grain bows bout 30 years ago...as most of the older guys did,,,,it will make a nice shooting bow
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 08:25:11 am by bradsmith2010 »

Offline Bayou Ben

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Re: vertical grain is stronger than horizontal grain
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2019, 08:44:05 am »
"I guess I'm trying to appeal more to the experienced members on this page. How many bows have you made now? hundreds if not more? Why not try something new, sure you may end up failing, but you might find out an alternative, if not a better way of doing things. Maybe you deem it not worth your time, and I guess that's your decision. I guess I find interest in different aspects of creativity than most and like to try to think outside the box."

You really think the guys building 100's of bows aren't trying new things? ....and vertical grain vs horizontal grain isn't thinking outside the box.  It's done all the time!


Offline Jim Davis

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Re: vertical grain is stronger than horizontal grain
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2019, 09:00:05 am »
There is a lot of wood, hay, stubble and used hay in this and most threads.

Here is the absolute indisputable truth about edge grain and flat grain. I will not condense or summarize the material, because some would certainly say I misrepresented it.

https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/ch04.pdf
Jim Davis

Kentucky--formerly Maine

Offline PatM

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Re: vertical grain is stronger than horizontal grain
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2019, 09:14:32 am »
    There's about two sentences in that which sum it all up  to a conclusion most wouldn't be surprised about.

Offline bradsmith2010

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Re: vertical grain is stronger than horizontal grain
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2019, 10:27:59 am »
ok I tried to read it,, whew,, what I got was that in some species,, the grain orintation makes no difference,, and in some it does,, (S)

Offline Jim Davis

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Re: vertical grain is stronger than horizontal grain
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2019, 10:48:47 am »
ok I tried to read it,, whew,, what I got was that in some species,, the grain orintation makes no difference,, and in some it does,, (S)

OKaaaaaay.

Lime is tangential, red is radial. Bigger number = more strength.
Jim Davis

Kentucky--formerly Maine

Offline gfugal

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Re: vertical grain is stronger than horizontal grain
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2019, 10:54:29 am »
Quote
"In some species, there is no difference in 0° [edge grain] and 90°  [parallel grain] orientation properties. Other
species exhibit slightly higher shear parallel or tension perpendicular-to-grain properties for the 0° orientation than for
the 90° orientation; the converse is true for about an equal number of species."
is probably the most significant statement in the article about what we're discussing.
Greg,
No risk, no gain. Expand the mold and try new things.

Offline PatM

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Re: vertical grain is stronger than horizontal grain
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2019, 11:08:06 am »

Here is the absolute indisputable truth about edge grain and flat grain. I will not condense or summarize the material, because some would certainly say I misrepresented it.



  Sounds like you may have in your next post.    Or at least made a biased selection.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 11:18:30 am by PatM »

Offline bradsmith2010

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Re: vertical grain is stronger than horizontal grain
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2019, 11:14:42 am »
PatM,, you still can't :D prove scientificly that Elvis was not a good singer,, :) :D
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 12:03:08 pm by bradsmith2010 »

Offline gfugal

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Re: vertical grain is stronger than horizontal grain
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2019, 11:16:45 am »
ok I tried to read it,, whew,, what I got was that in some species,, the grain orintation makes no difference,, and in some it does,, (S)

OKaaaaaay.

Lime is tangential, red is radial. Bigger number = more strength.

Modulus of elasticity does not equate to strength per se. Rather it's just a measure of how stiff it is. Yew has a lower modulus of elasticity than red oak, yet I think we could all agree which is the better bow wood.
Greg,
No risk, no gain. Expand the mold and try new things.

Offline PatM

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Re: vertical grain is stronger than horizontal grain
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2019, 11:22:06 am »
 The answer may be to use some woods vertically and some horizontally but not generalize them all.   I'm certainly never going to mill a perfect Elm tree into edge grained boards ,