Getting bored of failing...

[WillS]

How many attempts did it take you guys to end up with a success?  I've managed to ruin three yew staves and 6 ash staves so far, and I still don't have a functional bow!  I've only tried making longbows so far, using various dimensions and methods.

I've read TBB volumes 1-3 over and over again to the point I could probably quote from them, and have been absorbing and digesting as much as I can on various forums for months, and yet when it comes to making an actual bow, they either break during tillering or suddenly go soggy and develop massive chrysals at places I just didn't expect them to!  Am I expecting too much and this is how it goes, or is something going horribly wrong and I should have at least got one bow out of it by now?

[Pat B]

It took me 10 years before I built a "real" bow. In those days we didn't have the internet and PA. All I had were a few books that I had to interpert. I think George Tsoukalas broke the first 14 he built. I'm sure you will hear from others with similar experiences.
The one thing that really helped me to make my first successful bow and all the others since then was patience. Once I learned that, took my time and made each bit of wood removal thoughtful my bows improved.
  Tell us your method of building bows from the stave through the process.

[WillS]

Well if I use the latest "failure" as an example (although I know it's not really a failure, it's just a way of learning!)

I take the stave which I split from an ash log that had been seasoned for 6 months.  I drew a string line and cut off any length I didn't need.  I made it 200mm long, and was using the dimensions from norwegianwarbows.com.  I was following dimensions for a 90lb bow, thinking it would be easier to work down a well-tillered bow instead of aiming to hit my target draw weight (60lb) in one go. 

Once the back had been marked, it was drawknifed and hatcheted to a rough shape, and I did the same for the sides.  I left the stave for about a month to season further, then slowly started floor tillering.  I suddenly noticed both tips about 5 inches in develop heavy hinges and go soft, and no matter how much of the belly I removed each side of the hinge, all the movement of the limbs were in those two spots.  The chrysals appeared even though I was nowhere near full brace or draw weight.

Am I just using the wrong bow style for ash?  Should I forget my longbow idea and go for a flatbow instead? 

[SLIMBOB]

For me, I had hands on help from an experienced bow maker on my first.  I did the work, but under the watchful eye of someone who knew through making them, what to do and not to do.  Like you, I had read everything available to me up to that point.  With all that book knowledge, I really didn't know sic' em from come 'ere.  First one turned out great.  Still shooting it nearly 20 years later.  The next several were more of a challenge as I was on my own.  Some worked, some didn't.  Every stave is different, requiring a different approach to certain things.  Still, the instructions I got on the first one, translated into hands-on knowledge and experience.  Straight up the learning curve early on, and more of an ability to parlay that experience on the next one.  This may not be of much help to you if you have no access to an accomplished bow maker.  If you do, bribe, or beg, them for help.  Usually, just asking is all it takes for most I've known.  If you don't know any, and you will go it alone, realize that your learning what not to do by doing it, as opposed to someone saying "don't do that" and saving you the time.  A much tougher slog, but with persistence and bulldog determination, you'll get there. 

Edit;  Above I said "the next several were more of a challenge".  Upon reading that, I submit this change.  "All my subsequent bows were more of a challenge."  Every stave I've worked has presented a new set of challenges, requiring a different approach than the last.  And to this day, some work, some don't.  My success rate is simply higher now.

[Newindian]

Maybe you could do a build along here on the forum

[steve b.]

Will, so when you say, longbow, are you rounding the belly and making the bow long and narrow?  If so, then, yes, make a flatbow from the ash.  Make a simple bow that works then make another and another with minor changes to each successive bow until you notice changes in the bow itself.  You should overbuild the first bow so that it survives even though it will not cast the arrow as fast as it could.  So keep the width of the limbs wide and parallel for most of its length then taper to tips.

The heavier the bow the more likely it is to break or set, so make the bow medium to light.  Rough out the handle before you tiller but only so small as to get your hand around it as you will finish the handle later.  But you don't want a big, square block of wood for the handle whilst tiller; you want something comfortable.  Same with the tips; leave the last six inches as big as possible but small enough that you can get a string on it.  But taper those big tips into the limb.  Same with the handle; taper the big handle into limbs.

Of course you don't carve the back of the bow but you will carve the belly and square the edges as though you were making a thin 2x4.  The belly will be flat all the way to the stiff tips where it will ramp up for the last 6" or so.  Make the ramps to the tips and the ramps to the handle even on both limbs.

You should post some pics of your progress for help too, if possible.

[WillS]

I love this forum - really great advice guys, thanks!

Funnily enough I do have access to an experienced bowyer, and by working with him the last yew stave I had ended up being a bow, but he saved my poor attempt so I cant consider it a success from my point of view! Learned a huge amount though.

Steve, I'm gonna do exactly as you've suggested with my next one, rather than trying to build the longbow I want without enough experience!

I'd love to be able to have something to post on here as a result!

[Pat B]

I would suggest you start with a simple style bow and learn proper tillering and how to see proper tiller. Once you build a few like this you can expand your horizons. Tillering is the common thread with all wood bows so learning it is paramont to building any bow.
  Also, don't start with a 90# bow design to build a 60# bow. Aim for 60# from the start. You could be overstressing the stave early in the process.
  If the hinges are back to belly, either the wood was not cured well or you are overstressing the tips at floor tiller. Leave your tips wide(1/2"-1") and thick so they don't bend at all. You can get them bending later if they need it.
  You should be able to floor tiller any stave, seasoned or wet without overstressing the limbs. All you want to do is bend the limbs just enough(no more than 4" to 5") to see how well they bend early in the process. If they appear to bend well go to a long string (just longer than the stave), put the bow up on the tiller tree and with slight pressure see if both limbs bend evenly and together.
 Never over pull the stave more then the intended draw weight or past the intended draw length. In the early stages of tillering you will only be pulling the bow on the tiller tree an inch or two at a time and try not to hold it there for too long. You are educating your stave to bend so you don't want to teach it unnecessary stuff. Take it slow and easy. If you feel frustation or anger, walk away and come back later after you have cleared your mind.
  Pics are always a big help for us so we can see and understand the problems. Ask lots of questions!!! 
  Also, each bow style has woods that work best. ELB style bows need compression strong wood because all the stress is down the center(crown) of the belly. After you get experience, ash might make a good, heavy ELB for you but for now learn proper till with a flatbow. For now you would be better served building an overbuilt flat bow as per Paul Comstock("The Bent Stick"). 1 3/4" to 2" wide at the fades and out to about 6" to 8" from the tips then taper to 1/2" tips.
 For a 28" draw the bow length could be from 66" to 68" or longer. 

[PEARL DRUMS]

Three tries with hickory boards and my first stave bow is still shooting great. Never stop thinking about what may happen later as a result of what your doing now. Thats my best advice.

[Badly Bent]

I'd suggest taking Pat's advice of doing the 'overbuilt' Comstock bow from tbb 1 as your first. I did that for my first and it is still shooting
14 yrs later, even took a couple deer with it along the way. Mine was from 65 yr old seasoned osage fence post and I admit using osage
helps as it is very forgiving but the design is all so forgiving as well as durable and functional. Heres what my first looks like, wide, flat and durable. Good luck, you'll get there man.
Greg

[ionicmuffin]

Dont feel discouraged! ive failed every stave bow ive tried  i really think that you just keep going until you get it right. once you've made your first the rest should come a bit easier because of what you've learned. Something you can try doing, is to try to find the reason why that bow broke, every time you will collect more reasons why it failed, learn from it, and apply it to your next bow.
Writing down those reasons may help too.

[lostarrow]

Sounds like the If you have access to  drier staves or use a board you may have better success. Once you know what it feels like to work with dry wood you should be able to apply that to other staves .

[George Tsoukalas]

14 tries spread out over 3 years before I got a bow I could hunt with and mostly from using back locust staves. I didn't know how to differentiate the good wood from the bad and nor did I know to chase a ring on BL. Jawge

[Eric Krewson]

Sounds like you need a tillering gizmo.

[H Rhodes]

Stay with it!  There are some great helpers on this site and they have all been giving you great advice (probably all of us have broken lots of bows).  I don't know much about the types of wood that you have been using - but it might be easier on your confidence if you go with something tension strong and less susceptible to breakage like white oak, hickory, or pecan.  My first shooter was from a pecan sapling and was a fairly simple design, barely bending in the handle and a full  1 3/4"  wide over 60% of the limb length - about 41lbs. of draw weight.  Go longer and wider until you get one flinging arrows.    Once you get a shooter or two under your belt, then  try some of the more ambitious designs that you have been reading about.   Good luck to you and Happy Thanksgiving!