Holmgaard / Mollegebat

[agd68]

These bows are cool. I understand the science behind them and know they are some of; if not the oldest bows; found in Europe. I have never shot one but am told  they are fast shooters with very good range. Why, I wonder did the style seem to die out ?

[dragonman]

while europe had a plentifull supply of yew wood this became the predominant bow wood and didnt require the mollie /holmie profile because of its superior flexibility. People then began to asume this was the only wood suitable for bows and forgot about how to make them from other white woods, which do require the mollegabet/holmie design.......this is one possibilty
My grandad only used yew therefore bows must be made from yew..

Hunter gatherer tribes tend to use what is in their immediate environment, but in europe these people where killed off long ago and currupt war mongering governments monopolised the primitive arms industry....this is another possibilty

[Holten101]

Bows died out...that what happend;-)

Nah Dragon is on to something....flatbows (including Holmegaard and Møllegabet) were superceeded by ELB's, which were superceeded by firearms. When bows came back in recreational fasion, peoples minds were imprinted with the imidiate middle-age history of archery...that, and "yew brain wash" by alot of authors;-). By the time bow artefacts from the stoneage were found, described and knowledge of them had slowly seeped into the minds of archers, the glasfiber-age had gained a steel grip.

In my parts of the world (denmark....not far from were the Holmegaard bow was found) Elm flatbows are a VERY rare sight indeed at 3D shoots and at the clubs/ranges. NO one knows about the "molly" design, or the actual artefact, and no one knows that the Holmegaard dig produced two bows. Hell, very few knows Elm is good bow wood....people continually ask if my bows are Ash and seem surprised when I tell em they are wych elm, and they allways give me that "huh, so you couldnt find yew, could you?" look;-).

Cheers

[blackhawk]

The only answers you'll find here is a "hobbyists"best educated guess,and I don't even think a professional expert in that field of study could tell you exactly why. But,the times were way different back then,the world was flat,superstitions,myths,worship of objects(ok we still do that today..ehem ..wood..lol) ,lots of war conquests destroying cultures and enslaving them to there beliefs,ways and culture,and many more things that could have changed that,or it could've been a slow evolution of change ....who knows.

[Weylin]

Has any one made a yew molly? I've never seen one  and wonder if there's a good reason for that. I've been toying with the idea; I like the molly design and have more yew than I know what to do with.

[blackhawk]

 

Has any one made a yew molly? I've never seen one  and wonder if there's a good reason for that. I've been toying with the idea; I like the molly design and have more yew than I know what to do with.

No I haven't,but Ive got plans to do so... should be a great performer with yews lighter mass...and if you have more yew than you know what to do with,then send one my way n ill make a yew molly   

[PatM]

They didn't die out, they just bent through a population bottleneck.
 Yew isn't going to be any lighter in this design. Low bend resistance means more material is needed to keep the outer limb stiff.

[SLIMBOB]

  I don't know whether it's true or not, but I have read from more than one source that the flat bow and the ELB did in fact exist and were in use side by side in many parts of Europe.  The Yew ELB's were made in staggeringly high numbers and so more survived.  This explanation makes more sense to me than one design completely replacing the other over an entire continent.

[blackhawk]

Patm...you crack me up..and you should change your handle name to "devils advocate", or "Mr. Politically correct",or "auto correct",or the,"spell checker"..lol

There's obviously more to certain wood traits and characteristics that do well in a lever bow design(compression n elasticity the top two),and not just the specific gravity of the wood and how it'll be same mass tips as any other...and you know I know this and wood bite at your remark. 

[}|{opukc]

Griffin have a similar  holmegaard design from yew

http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/reply/331181/Detailed-Holmgaard-Pictures#reply-331181

[PatM]

Patm...you crack me up..and you should change your handle name to "devils advocate", or "Mr. Politically correct",or "auto correct",or the,"spell checker"..lol

There's obviously more to certain wood traits and characteristics that do well in a lever bow design(compression n elasticity the top two),and not just the specific gravity of the wood and how it'll be same mass tips as any other...and you know I know this and wood bite at your remark. 

I merely meant that it's hard to find a wood that won't make a good lever bow and they all seem to shoot really well. Everything about them enhances the bending ability of any bow wood.
 The only way I can see making one wood shoot noticeably better than the other is experimenting with tipping the lever angle back a bit to ensure the bending limb actually is optimally stressed and then finding a way to absolutely minimize the lever weight and  retain the rigidity.
 It would probably be an interesting experiment to make some foam or balsa levers with a layer of carbon as a proof of concept bow.

[Holten101]

Patm...you crack me up..and you should change your handle name to "devils advocate", or "Mr. Politically correct",or "auto correct",or the,"spell checker"..lol

There's obviously more to certain wood traits and characteristics that do well in a lever bow design(compression n elasticity the top two),and not just the specific gravity of the wood and how it'll be same mass tips as any other...and you know I know this and wood bite at your remark. 

I merely meant that it's hard to find a wood that won't make a good lever bow and they all seem to shoot really well. Everything about them enhances the bending ability of any bow wood.
 The only way I can see making one wood shoot noticeably better than the other is experimenting with tipping the lever angle back a bit to ensure the bending limb actually is optimally stressed and then finding a way to absolutely minimize the lever weight and  retain the rigidity.
 It would probably be an interesting experiment to make some foam or balsa levers with a layer of carbon as a proof of concept bow.

In all seriousness....I cant make a leverbow outperform a simple pyramid. Could be that some can.....Im just not convinced the gain is "worth" the effort. Leverbows are still my favorite....I gotta alow for some irrationallity in my life;-)

Cheers

[blackhawk]

True pat..any wood that is bow worthy can make a good shooting lever bow..but as you know there are a couple that excell when you weigh in ALL the criteria. Most whitewoods can only go so short,narrow working limbs,and be drawn so far before they start failing. Woods like osage and yew that are the best in compression and elasticity allow more draw,and even overdraw,and give much more durability. And let us know about them balsa levers. I know Tim Baker talked of using flax along the sides of the levers to make em super narrow and light yet still be durable. I dont remember exactly if he ever said how well it actually worked?

Holten....my lever bows are faster than any simple pyramid I've made.

[Holten101]

Holten....my lever bows are faster than any simple pyramid I've made.

Well....if it can be done, then im sure you would be the one to do it:-).

Im hovering around 170-175 fps (30 grams arrow out of  48-55# bows) with either....but I put alot of work into a leverbow to get that:-/

I did make one (lever bow) that topped 180, but it wasnt durable.-(

Considder the no. of bows im cranking out I might get there at some point:-)

Cheers

[PatM]

True pat..any wood that is bow worthy can make a good shooting lever bow..but as you know there are a couple that excell when you weigh in ALL the criteria. Most whitewoods can only go so short,narrow working limbs,and be drawn so far before they start failing. Woods like osage and yew that are the best in compression and elasticity allow more draw,and even overdraw,and give much more durability. And let us know about them balsa levers. I know Tim Baker talked of using flax along the sides of the levers to make em super narrow and light yet still be durable. I dont remember exactly if he ever said how well it actually worked?

Holten....my lever bows are faster than any simple pyramid I've made.

Maybe so but I see just as many lever bows of borderline wood drawn extremely far and quite a few Osage and Ipe drawn tentatively far under their potential.
 I definitely think the potential is there for the prime woods. It would be nice to see it happen more often though.
 Most people don't seem to be minimizing the length or width enough to be worrying too much about using the very best woods.
 I think it's hard to top an Elm or HHB  or Maple mollie in medium length.